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| Evasion Improvement; Why can't stats improve hit chance? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 18 2012, 05:34 PM (3,409 Views) | |
| Picknchew | Jul 23 2012, 04:09 AM Post #21 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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Last I remember Straight-lord, Clairsentients and weapons masters already had a way of ignoring evasion completely but I admittedly haven't caught up on reading all the changes to classes so maybe this isn't as good as I remember. @Pika626 the beauty of this game is having those extra slots for utility, and quite honestly Sweet scent is one of the best endgame moves you could have, While its not available to the majority of species one thing you have to consider as well is there will be a party of people and that most of the Pokemon who learn sweet scent are very common (even though every campaign is different I'm sure there are lots of Oddish) As for Accuracy boosts on Pokemon again I still don't think attaching it to any stat would work well enough, so I propose this. Accuracy boosts based off of Pokemon Level something like a STAB bonus, I'd imagine it would be divisible by 20 for a maximum boost of +5. This way it wont completely negate any boosts from defenses or speed evasion, but will certainly stack well with the effects of Hone claws or Sweet Scent. |
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| Esprit15 | Jul 23 2012, 10:38 AM Post #22 |
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STAB/5 sounds like a nice work around for the wiff-fests that higher level battles inevitably become. Would defenses still be able to counter this though, such as a mon having 45 Defense still being able to have +6 Evasion if the enemy is level 75 (15 STAB, or +3 AC in this)? It gives incentive to continue investing for more than just the DR. |
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| pika626 | Jul 23 2012, 02:40 PM Post #23 |
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That's why I liked the idea of having Sp.A and Atk be what determines Accuracy bonuses. The problem I see with Level and Stab being used to determine it is that it's STILL a whiffer fest at high levels. A Pokemon at max level would only gain +5 to their AC which is 1 less than the +6 you can get as a maximum off of pure stats alone, and 4 less when you take into account the Combat Stages. Pokemon only need to put in a total of 55 points into Defense and then never bother with it again in order to gain full +6 Evasion with no worries about their opponent being able to counter it because at Max level they're never going to get anything higher than a 5. With Sp.A and Atk being the determining stats, you have a constant give and take between Evasion and Accuracy. It gives even MORE incentive to a player to put stats into Def because they HAVE to if they want to keep their evasion up. I still don't like the idea of Speed being the determining factor. It makes no sense. Animals have their weak points, yes, but they've already taken them into account when they go into battle. The saber-tooth cat's fangs were brittle and broke easily, so he developed killing strategies to keep the prey from thrashing long enough to suffocate it to death. An Aggron had developed its armor plating around its weak points already, it doesn't have to maneuver around to protect them because they're already protected. The point of having Attack is being able to puncture those defenses in their weakest point, something Speed cannot help you with. Sure you can whiz around and score their weak points all you like. But if you have no idea where those weak points even ARE, your Speed's gonna do nothing but bounce off and do nothing. |
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| xelada | Jul 23 2012, 04:22 PM Post #24 |
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Speed only counters Speed, a high Speed, low Attack attacker will "miss" more often if attacking a defender if it is high Defence low Speed than the other way round. So against an Aggron a super speedy attacker is nigh useless however against a Jolteon the speedy attacker will be more effective. |
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| Saruno | Jul 23 2012, 06:49 PM Post #25 |
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Accuracy and Attack Power has nothing to do with each other. If you want to come over defense you need a stronger attack power, not accuracy. In this regard, a stronger attack is usually inaccurate as it does not have to be pinpoint in order to break a defense. Its like comparing a rifle shot to a bazooka. I do not understand where you were going with this paragraph. The reason we say speed is because it makes the most sense out of all the stats currently with pokemon. Edited by Saruno, Jul 23 2012, 06:49 PM.
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| DrStraightLord | Jul 23 2012, 07:15 PM Post #26 |
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Ok. Listen. Just because the death star is insanely powerful does not make it's laser any more accurate. Just saying. Also, and this has been brought up before, speed=/=sniper accuracy with attacks, it just means it's more difficult to move those weak points (and yourself) out of the way against a faster 'mon. So, I still think speed should be the only stat to benefit accuracy (well, reduce evasion). |
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| pika626 | Jul 23 2012, 07:58 PM Post #27 |
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But that's the thing. Yes, power does not equal accuracy, but neither does speed. And your defenses do not equal evasion, but the game has settled itself of this aspect and it has come to be known as one of the official rules. So if Defense can equal evasion, why can't Attack equal accuracy? Why should Speed get all the special treatment when it completely throws off a Pokemon? Why should a Slowbro have to put stats into its Speed, one of its crappiest scores just to be able to hit a Metapod who's got insane defense and has hardened 6,000 times? Leat's face it, if we put Speed as a determining factor, we should basically just kick the base relationship rule in the nuts because that's what you guys want it to come to. Many Pokemon are not BUILT for speed and yet you want the sole factor to determine how accurate their attacks are compared to the opponents evasion is a stat that many of them don't even use. It. Makes. No. Sense. |
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| Picknchew | Jul 23 2012, 09:25 PM Post #28 |
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The only way I see this working is if its harder to get the stacking evasion bonus. Honestly I can see why it exists, and it certainly helps to a degree, but as it stands its just way too easy to get maximum evasion which is what hurts things most. So keep it either divisible by 10 or 20, or some other variant Even my increased accuracy post based off level is kind of pointless because in the long run It would completely render somethings high defenses useless by the end game, even if it is 'balanced' to be +5 only (1 every 20 levels) so that they could still have potentially 1 evasion. Anyway having it in 10s and 20's is a gurantee that even if you get hit it wont be that hard so you'll last a bit longer, from the 100 attack power Zangoose crush clawing your defenses. maybe that's something else we forgot about here too is that besides Accuracy enhancing moves, and evasion enhancing moves, and attack like Screech or Shadow ball (which if it rolls high enough anyway) will lower the targets defense stages and... their Defensive evasion, same goes for speed and scary face. Adding anything more like +Attack accuracy is silly when we have stuff like this, and the extra move slots to have them, you just need to meta game more instead of thinking everything has to be linear ![]() Edited by Picknchew, Jul 23 2012, 09:27 PM.
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| ghotiboy | Jul 23 2012, 09:28 PM Post #29 |
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Right, let's bring in a metaphor or two to try to explain how both SPD and S/ATK should play a role. Though I know it's not a sport many people are very familiar with, I used to fence, and I can attest that one of the single most frustrating things is knowing what your opponent is going to do and how you can stop it, but being unable to do anything about it because he's faster than you. On the other hand, all the speed in the world isn't going to help you if you haven't got a clue what you're doing. For something a bit less apt but more familiar (to Americans, anyhow), take baseball. You've got guys who are really big hitters, but not so quick around the bases. They hit a lot of homers, but aren't likely to score on anything else. Then you've got smaller, quicker guys who don't always hit it really far, but are fast enough to turn singles into doubles, steal bases, and get to home plate to score. Point being, neither S/ATK nor speed should be the only factor in mitigating Evasion. That being said, I'd be in favor of having S/ATK counter S/DEF and SPD counter SPD, though that's a bit too much bookkeeping and they could probably all be lumped together. |
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| Darchias | Jul 24 2012, 04:35 AM Post #30 |
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I think I see where my opinion differs from the majority of people here. See, I don't think having high evasion is a bad thing. The most accurate moves, on the current system, can have at most an accuracy check of 11. I think this is fine. In order to reach this large number, not only does a Pokemon have to invest in it's defenses (even if it isn't a defensive 'mon), but it has to find a way to reach +3 Combat Stages in whatever stat it is using for Evasion. This means it is using turns to boost instead of attack, and is using these turns to boost it's defenses instead of it's attack. This is a legitimate strategy. An enemy Pokemon could be using the turns that the Pokemon is boosting to hit it, perhaps NOT missing (not unlikely, seeing as how at worst it has a 50/50 shot of hitting) and burning through that valuable HP. Alternatively, the Pokemon could be using those moves that increase accuracy (Sweet Scent, Hone Claws, hell Lock On or Rain Dance). It could be boosting it's attack making sure that he only really needs ONE hit to take out the enemy Pokemon. It could be setting up hazards that can knock out the Pokemon without even NEEDING accuracy (Hail, Sandstorm, Confuse Ray). It could be waiting for the enemy to finish boosting so as to steal them with Psych Up. It could be waiting to Guard Swap your stats after waiting for you to finish wasting your time boosting. I'm sure there are things I'm missing with the above list. But the current Evasion rules I think are just fine, at worst maybe we need to invent some new Accuracy boosting moves and stick them in the TM list or Tutor lists, though I am aware the dev team may not want to go too far from the source material on the subject of new moves. One more thing: On less then accurate moves. If you're using them WITHOUT some way to boost your accuracy, you're wrong. Edited by Darchias, Jul 24 2012, 04:36 AM.
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