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| Evasion Improvement; Why can't stats improve hit chance? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 18 2012, 05:34 PM (3,410 Views) | |
| Darchias | Jul 21 2012, 12:22 AM Post #11 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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The reason I made it into reducing Evasion rather then increasing accuracy was so you don't penalize people for specializing in defense. In the little high-level play I have seen I noticed even offensive people were dropping enough into DEF and/or SDEF to max the Evasion (30). Having it reduce Evasion means that people that actually focus on DEF/SDEF and have those stats at above 30 still keep their +6 Evasion, but those offensive people that only give token Defense don't get that benefit. As for Defense and SDEF increasing Evasion, this is an important balancing tool. If it did not, that means all the best tanks would just increase HP and ignore DEF and SDEF since it's a better investment that way. You're thinking of the word 'Evasion' wrong. Just because they 'evade' an attack doesn't mean that it doesn't hit them, it just mean it didn't do any damage. A Pokemon like Aggron has some pretty obvious weak points in his armor. A Pokemon attacking an Aggron would obviously aim for one of these points. Aggron, rather the needing to move his entire body out of the way, must merely move so the hit lands on one of the more heavily armored sections of his body. I always said that Fighting is strong against Steel and Fighting not because it was good at breaking their armor but that the users are skilled enough to hit those weak spots and use them more effectively. Having Speed account into Accuracy instead of Attack is a fairly good idea though, I will admit that. |
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| Kaorin Sakura | Jul 21 2012, 06:09 AM Post #12 |
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The Sprite - Envy
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And now I have to disagree with Saruno, which makes me sad. ;-; 'cause she's awesome. Speed doesn't make sense to me to equal accuracy because 1) that penalizes naturally slow Pokémon and 2) speed doesn't equal accuracy. Firing a weapon quickly does not amount to your accuracy, punching or kicking quickly doesn't amount to your accuracy. It's a matter of patience, hand and eye coordination and stability. I believe that a Pokémon's respective attack stat would amount to these benefits as it shows their progress with getting better at hitting things with their respective moves. Maybe just have the accuracy bonus refer to what moves use their respective stats and give speed the bonus to moves that don't use these stats, similar but not identical to the way defense is? Also, as for the defense evasion being in effect, I've never actually thought of the Pokémon just not taking the damage due to their insane defense, but that they attacked your attack or just simply moved it out of the way mostly, but sometimes when that wouldn't make sense (like confusion) I'd default to it just didn't deal damage. |
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| pika626 | Jul 21 2012, 06:40 AM Post #13 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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I have to agree. Speed to raise Accuracy for moves other than moves in the Other Category that are not directly related to Attack or Sp. Attack just doesn't feel right. It essentially forces players to stack all of their points into Speed just to be able to hit. This leads to horrible min-maxing from players and dreadfully unbalanced 'mons. Why make an improvement of accuracy be something so out of place for Pokemon? A Pokemon like Turtwig whose Speed is incredibly inferior to its Attack and Sp. Attack as well as all other stats would completely ruin its base relation just to stack onto its Speed so that its moves like Solar Beam and Razor Leaf can manage to hit an incredibly defensive opponent at higher levels. I think the Accuracy improvement should acts as the opposite of Evasion improvement, but at different rates. If Defense raises Evasion for Attack, then Attack should raise Accuracy against Defense. If Sp. Defense raises Evasion for Sp. Attack, then Sp. Attack should be able to counter those measures appropriately. I think every 15 for a +1 might be a bit too high though. Maybe a +1 for every 10 in that stat whereas Speed needs a 15 to gain an Accuracy bonus. This allows it to scale a bit more easily across all levels and not pushing for more min-maxing from players. It allows for players to find a balance between offense and defense rather than just saying "Screw this" to Defense and putting everything into Attack, or saying likewise to Attack because their incredibly high Defense can block almost any attack half of the time. Pokemon evolve to match the different circumstances they are in. If their preferred prey increase their Defenses to stop them from being hunted, the hunter will increase his Offenses to offset this balance, but not at the cost of their own Defenses in case their prey decides to fight back. |
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| Picknchew | Jul 21 2012, 09:08 AM Post #14 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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I personally feel that evasion works best in the old formula of 10 Defense = 1 evasion, and 15 Speed = 1 Over all. It doesn't penalize anything or make things too weak someone specializing in defense is still going to be mostly untouchable. Speedy sweepers are still going to have that little extra bit of evasion to help them survive since its guaranteed their defenses will be low, everything else that's been said so far over complicates the game, and the revised evasion in the book now brings the game into Whiff fest mode and that's about as fun as 1 hit KOing everything. I'll also point out that there are a lot of abilities that reduce enemy evasion or increase your accuracy, So what you're trying to produce here is already done. |
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| xelada | Jul 21 2012, 09:22 AM Post #15 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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The boost Accuracy boost for Speed is less "fast things are more accurate" and more "slow things are easier to avoid". This may be what Pika is saying so sorry to Pika if I'm just reiterating what you said but here's a solution: Speed Accuracy only lowers the foes Speed Evasion and Attack/Special Accuracy lowers only the respective Evasion. |
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| Picknchew | Jul 21 2012, 10:18 AM Post #16 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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My solution is to not have Accuracy enhancements from attack or speed at all there are moves that allow you to increase your own personal Accuracy as is, and some moves that completely negate any evasion bonuses the opponent has stacked. Its redundant to have accuracy enhancements, the only reason that there is a static boost to evasion is so defensive Pokemon are actually competent but it only works well if its 1 evasion for every 10 points (as in you need 60 defense to have +6 physical evasion) or 15 points of speed for overall (90 speed for 6+ Evasion). This is a more fluid approach to combat evasion. It scales with level better than 1 evasion for 5 stats. This is because right now even an attack oriented Pokemon could balance out its stats well enough to have maximum evasion on at-least one stat on average by level 60 if they wanted, and by level 100 everyone would have maximum evasion period. and by that it also doesn't bring the game to a grinding halt. by the time you're higher levels where there is a large amount of evasion you'll already have a means to counter it in the form of hone claws, sweet scent, or good old Foresight. You could also argue that foresight, odor sleuth, and sweet scent are all obtained fairly early on, but still these are abilities that have a lot to over and in my opinion are overlooked. |
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| Saruno | Jul 21 2012, 10:34 AM Post #17 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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Like I said it will take a lot of theory-crafting to figure out how to balance. The fact that I say defenses for raising evasion ridiculous, is the fact that it provides damage reduction as is. In terms of realism (I know I am gonna get some hate for using the R word), Defenses usually equal to how well you can take hits, not to avoid them completely. The reason I dump speed into evasion only is because it makes sense that faster pokemon is more capable of dodging attacks. Though I admit I also agree with Darchias about it being a balancing tool. Now for the kicker is why I said to combine both Accuracy and Evasion solely into speed. The reason I say this is the pokemon SPEED stat is the closest to what we perceive as Dexterity. I also was going by the fact a faster pokemon is able to outspeed and hit a slower pokemon more times than a slower pokemon hitting a faster target. Yes this was a quick fix I came up last night but it made much more sense than either Attack or Special Attack raising accuracy same with defenses raising evasion. I personally would make both Evasion and Accuracy a separate stat like it was in the games instead of trying to clump it together. While in the games this was a static value that did not change. However since this is a PTA, it will probably not come in well. I personally would leave the system alone for now. imo it would take a complete rework on Move Accuracy and such to really make Accuracy and Evasion balance. I actually think 1d100 would fit accuracy better but again it probably complicate things for younger players. Edited by Saruno, Jul 21 2012, 10:36 AM.
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| pika626 | Jul 21 2012, 10:59 AM Post #18 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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@xelada: Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying. Sometimes I get lost in the argument and I lose the important solutions amongst the reasoning. XD Now the reason your solution doesn't work is this, Picknchew: Sweet Scent, Hone Claws, Foresight, and Odor Sleuth are not obtained by ALL Pokemon. Sweet Scent is learned only by Grass types with the exception of a few Pokemon like mawile and Surskit. Foresight is learned by even less Pokemon, but can be bred into many others, but that's hard to do sometimes. Odor Sleuth is along the same lines. And Hone Claws has the best overall coverage via actually being a TM, but still does not have full coverage. These moves are really good early on, I'll admit that, but they have an unfortunate drawback: They become rather useless late game. Even with the P:TTA format of allowing a full 14 moves, those slots can easily be filled with better moves with greater Accuracy and more damage. These moves tend to fall by the wayside. Odor Sleuth and Foresight are great for hitting Ghosts and finding the real duplicate in Double Team, but they do not override evasion based on Defense and Sp. Defense, only Speed evasion and moves that lower Accuracy are overridden. Few Pokemon actually have a high enough Speed stat that they can use to raise their Evasion high enough to make a dent in the AC of a move, but many can get it easier in Defense and Sp. Defense. Hone Claws is the only remaining move that is still somewhat viable as it raises both Attack AND Accuracy, but you still have to waste a number of turns to use that, turns your opponent can be spending to increase his own damage or defenses. Furthermore, the reason I prefer the 5/+1 evasion is that it helps greatly in early levels when that boost is highly needed. The boost is not great early on unless you're a Shuckle and have a base +4 (not +2 like I was previously mistaken) as a move's Accuracy is low enough that most attacks succeed with ease, but it can turn a move that is just barely on the cusp of hitting you due to Base AC that could pretty much kill you into a move that misses, thus saving your life. The problem comes in the mid to late game where, as you have stated, the game becomes a whiffer fest and nobody can hit the broad side of a barn because that barn has a 30 in Defense due to its hardness and therefore has a +6 Evasion bonus. Now, what I like about this method is that there is no longer a maximum stat. Players can no longer just put 30 into their Def/Sp. Def and call it at that and stack everything else into their Attack stats. They have to continue to balance out those stats as they are no longer going to have that safety cushion behind them to avoid attacks. They have to continue to find a balance between their stats rather than min-maxing their Pokemon towards one particular stat. That's not what all Players should do, it's what a Stat Ace should be doing. Though one thing that comes to my mind is that the +6 cap can become obsolete as Players continue to boost stats in |
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| Darchias | Jul 21 2012, 03:42 PM Post #19 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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Keep in mind that in addition to the +6 Evasion cap, that is not including Combat Stages. For every DEF, SDEF, and SPD Combat stage is +1 Evasion. This can exceed the +6 cap, but stops again at a +9 cap. I think the current system has sufficiently nerfed Evasion to an acceptable level, though I mainly say this due to being utterly destroyed in a recent high-level Arena game when I had made my team to exploit stacking Evasion as much as possible. Stacking Evasion is currently a high risk, high reward system. I honestly don't believe that we need accuracy to be changed from the current system. What I do say is that if any stat would be attached to Accuracy, it would be SPD for two main reasons. One, it makes the MAD that tanks have (DEF, SDEF, and HP) have an equal balance for sweepers (ATK, SATK, SPD), though it still isn't really equal since a sweeper only really has to focus on one attacking stat. Mainly, making ATK or SATK increase accuracy makes sweepers even better at tank-cracking, changing the game. The second reason is more that a fast Pokemon could more easily get past another Pokemon's guard, or catch another speedy Pokemon. It isn't that speed equals better aim, it's that a fast Pokemon is harder to avoid. |
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| DrStraightLord | Jul 22 2012, 06:51 PM Post #20 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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I think that using speed and speed alone for this is a good idea, actually- it won't get much use otherwise. However, consider this- should trainers get something equivalent? They get evasion, so should they get a way to reduce it? |
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