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[PTU] Ace Trainer: An Alternative
Topic Started: Feb 6 2017, 12:22 PM (1,057 Views)
The Black Glove
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A Man Of Heart
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So with PTU 2.0 coming out, and what little information that's become available looking somewhat promising, I've decided to pause the production and adjustment of my own little project until after it's release. Rather than let everyone stew in anticipation for PTU's update, I decided to release a few of the reworked/readjusted classes I've made as they would appear in PTU.

Ace Trainer never satisfied me; it's had many EXP granting features over its iterations, and a lot of its other features were very generically good, the sort of thing that I thought should be either available to all classes (Perseverance, Signature Technique) or as a part of another class (Top Percentage). So I drafted a new version, one that turns into a branching class with branches that can replace the other [Training]-based classes (Athlete, Duelist, Cheerleader, Taskmaster) should a GM so desire. In this way, you can make an Ace Trainer who is generically good, or good at a specific playstyle within the effects of [Training] Features, which also gave me room to remove the Pokemon aspect from (Athlete and Cheerleader) or remove entirely (Taskmaster and Duelist) the other [Training] Classes.

But first, a quick review of the [Training] Features I'll be using.

Training Features

And now the actual class itself.

Ace Trainer
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When you wanna be the very best like no one ever was, you need to put in the time, effort, and prep work to improve your Pokémon's ability to fight. Ace Trainers are the sort of people who coach their Pokémon in various ways to improve everything from durability to damage output to the ability to resist status conditions.

While Ace Trainer is a singular class, it has Six "styles" of training a player might choose to focus on; Intense, Swift, Targeted, Supportive, Forceful, and Analyzing. An Ace Trainer may choose to follow one of these styles the whole way through, or they may choose to dip into a little of each style.

Intense Style focuses on the secondary effects of moves, and Critical Hits.
Swift Style focuses on Initiative and Movement.
Targeted Style is a specialist in single-target damage.
Supportive Style provides helpful effects to allies.
Forceful Style emphasizes brute force to overwhelm opponents.
Analyzing Style gathers information about the targets to use to their advantage.

Ace Trainer
[Class] [Gift] [Branch]
Prerequisites: Rank 3 Command
Static
Effect: Choose Aggression Training, Agility Training, Brutal Training, Caution Training, Focused Training, or Inspired Training. You gain that Feature, regardless of whether or not you meet the prerequisites. Additionally, choose one of Intense Style, Swift Style, Targeted Style, Supportive Style, Forceful Style, or Analyzing Style. You may take features from that Style. You make take Ace Trainer multiple times, choosing a different Training Feature and Style each time.

Training Techniques
Prerequisites: Ace Trainer
Static
Effect: Choose Aggression Training, Agility Training, Brutal Training, Caution Training, Focused Training, or Inspired Training. You gain that Feature, regardless of whether or not you meet the prerequisites.

Specialized Stat Training
[Training]
Prerequisites: Ace Trainer
At-Will - Extended Action
Target: A Pokémon you own.
Effect: When applying this feature, choose a Stat besides HP. Raise the default value of that stat by +1 Combat Stage. You may apply Specialized Stat Training twice with the Elite Trainer Feature, but you must choose a different Stat for each use.

Elite Trainer
Prerequisites: Ace Trainer, 2 Features with the [Training] Tag, Rank 5 Command
Static
Effect: When training, you may apply up to two [Training] Features on each of your Pokémon. You may not apply the same [Training] Feature twice.

Fruits of our Labor
[Orders]
Prerequisites: 4 Ace Trainer Features, Rank 6 Command
Daily x2 - Standard Action
Target: A Pokémon under the effects of a [Training] Feature.
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, the effects of the target's [Training] are tripled. ie., Agility Training would grant +15 Initiative and +3 Overland.

Intense Style

Swift Style

Targeted Style

Supportive Style

Forceful Style

Analyzing Style
Edited by The Black Glove, Feb 7 2017, 11:22 AM.
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FanaticRat
Pokémon Trainer
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I have to admit, I don't quite get the point of the class. You want to condense the battling styles and use specializations to branch into the typical battling styles, but I can't see what benefit that actually has. NOt only that, it seems harmful to those that actually want to focus pokesupport: instead of being able to select multiple classes, they're now stuck with one class they're forced to do one specialty in and can't do any more.

Anyway, other than that, this looks like Ace Trainer nerfed to hell. Not only is the base feature a huge nerf, it's pretty pointless mechanically as you can already apply training features to up to six pokemon at a time. The rest of it also seems that you put higher prereqs on all the features: I know that Ace Trainer is currently unbalanced as far as pokesupport goes but I feel like this is too much.

Anyway, other than that, I'm wary of Aggression and Cautious training, as they're literally ten stat points in a single feature. I unno, I feel like I'm missing something here.
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GrayGriffin
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FanaticRat
Feb 6 2017, 07:55 PM
I have to admit, I don't quite get the point of the class. You want to condense the battling styles and use specializations to branch into the typical battling styles, but I can't see what benefit that actually has. NOt only that, it seems harmful to those that actually want to focus pokesupport: instead of being able to select multiple classes, they're now stuck with one class they're forced to do one specialty in and can't do any more.
Um, what? The introduction specifically says that you can dip into the different styles as you wish, and that the specific Training-based classes still exist..
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FanaticRat
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GrayGriffin
Feb 6 2017, 08:22 PM
FanaticRat
Feb 6 2017, 07:55 PM
I have to admit, I don't quite get the point of the class. You want to condense the battling styles and use specializations to branch into the typical battling styles, but I can't see what benefit that actually has. NOt only that, it seems harmful to those that actually want to focus pokesupport: instead of being able to select multiple classes, they're now stuck with one class they're forced to do one specialty in and can't do any more.
Um, what? The introduction specifically says that you can dip into the different styles as you wish, and that the specific Training-based classes still exist..
Ah, apologies. I misread the "turns into a branching class with branches that can replace the other [Training]-based classes (Athlete, Duelist, Cheerleader, Taskmaster) should a GM so desire." as the class supposed to replace those classes. My other points still stand, though.
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Paperblade
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Ditto that base feat is pointless, since the effect granted already exists baseline for all characters

Next question is why does the class have so many more feats than other classes? Even if you focus on just one style, that's 9 features required, while the average class has 7. And since you'd be applying 2 trainings to any given mon, you'd more than likely be able to find use for 2 styles, bringing that up to 13. And that's ignoring that Training Techniques can be taken multiple times. Is this intentional?

I also don't entirely get why Elite Trainer was split into two feats outright--just gaining a general feature without needing to meet qualifications is pretty weak (compare to Dilettante, for example). The Commander base feat at least lets you ignore the skill rank entirely (which is pretty nice, seeing as those orders require Expert), letting you learn them earlier than you might otherwise be able to.

I'll grant that being able to apply two different trainings is stronger with the fighting style branches incorporated into the class, but you still need to commit a feat to access that sort of variety, Sure, you don't need to also add, say, Taskmaster and Rider on top of that, but with how feat intensive this class is by default I'm not sure the 4 class cap would even come up unless you were either in a high level campaign or wanted small dips into other classes.
Edited by Paperblade, Feb 6 2017, 11:16 PM.
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The Black Glove
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FanaticRat
Feb 6 2017, 07:55 PM
Anyway, other than that, this looks like Ace Trainer nerfed to hell. Not only is the base feature a huge nerf, it's pretty pointless mechanically as you can already apply training features to up to six pokemon at a time. The rest of it also seems that you put higher prereqs on all the features: I know that Ace Trainer is currently unbalanced as far as pokesupport goes but I feel like this is too much.
This was carryover from my own system that I hadn't realized was the case in PTU (It's been a while since I've bothered with it). In said system, trainers can apply [Training] Features to a number of Pokemon equal to half their command rank, with Ace Trainer taking things a step further. That being said, you are right in that it will need an adjustment to match PTU's setup, so I'll be working on a replacement.
Quote:
 
Anyway, other than that, I'm wary of Aggression and Cautious training, as they're literally ten stat points in a single feature. I unno, I feel like I'm missing something here.
I can make the point in Aggression Training that you're only going to be using one of those stats offensively, unless you're building a Mixed Sweeper (in which case you probably need this to help you along anyways). You make a good point on that Caution Training is alternatively useful in all stats to everyone, but I do feel I should at least point out that this is "damage reduction" rather than direct stats- it's not going to effect evasion, boost combat stages, or work against any effect that ignores/reduces DR (ie., Chip Away). It's just going to make you a little better at taking hits.

Paperblade
Feb 6 2017, 11:16 PM
Next question is why does the class have so many more feats than other classes? Even if you focus on just one style, that's 9 features required, while the average class has 7. And since you'd be applying 2 trainings to any given mon, you'd more than likely be able to find use for 2 styles, bringing that up to 13. And that's ignoring that Training Techniques can be taken multiple times. Is this intentional?
Part of it is due to the way I've designed my own setup- I found it irritating that a class would make you take it again to gain the other features in it when you already have the class and skill prerequisites. This has caused me to alter a few classes (maybe I'll post Martial Artist and Musician's reworks at some point?), and Researcher has reaped a large benefit from it. That thinking leaked over into this as well. This class, which has 29 features, does in fact give players the option to potentially gain (almost) every single feature the class has to offer. It certainly might not be the optimal way to do it, and not one I would suggest, but it is a choice a player can make, and I am very big on player choice. However, please understand that you are not required to take every feature within a class- this is true even in core PTU, though 1.05 doesn't have nearly enough variety within a single class to make taking any class exclusively a viable option due to the way it was designed, hence the mindset of being required to take all the features if only to fill out the empty space in your levels.

Quote:
 
I also don't entirely get why Elite Trainer was split into two feats outright--just gaining a general feature without needing to meet qualifications is pretty weak (compare to Dilettante, for example). The Commander base feat at least lets you ignore the skill rank entirely (which is pretty nice, seeing as those orders require Expert), letting you learn them earlier than you might otherwise be able to.
The hell is a Commander? While it's training effects might be lower in level prerequisites, between the 5 skills, Ace Trainer still requires a high number of skills to be ranked up. It's mostly there to support players who actually want to use a variety of training effects rather than specializing into a style, and does a decently powerful job of doing so, and given that it grants a feature while ignoring prerequisites, I considered it too powerful of an effect to have bunched into another...

Quote:
 
I'll grant that being able to apply two different trainings is stronger with the fighting style branches incorporated into the class, but you still need to commit a feat to access that sort of variety, Sure, you don't need to also add, say, Taskmaster and Rider on top of that, but with how feat intensive this class is by default I'm not sure the 4 class cap would even come up unless you were either in a high level campaign or wanted small dips into other classes.
...specifically this feat. Remember again that a player is by no means obligated to take all the features of a class. They exist as an option, not a requirement. As to whether or not I believe these are appropriate prerequisites for Elite Trainer... I will admit that I seem to have missed that Elite Trainer should require the knowledge of at least 2 Training Features (an easy fix), but otherwise, even discounting the new style branches, effectively doubling the power of your Training effects is not something to be taken lightly, and is more than worthy of its own feature.
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carnackiArdent
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The thing with the multiple feats is that PTU's classes are deliberately set up so that you can gain most or all of their options without repeat features unless there's a deliberate specialization choice made, at least in 1.05. I'll admit that this has had unfortunate results in some cases (e.g. how linear Musician is, and Martial Artist not being branchable anymore because it's got several feats that would be redundant) but it's a general part of the design philosophy, and constructing classes under a different design philosophy has a tendency to have odd results (like the fact that this version of Ace Trainer could theoretically take up every single feat a trainer can have over the course of their career in a system aimed at multiclassing).

My first suggestion would be one that brings the class closer to 1.05's Ace Trainer - make Specialized Stat Training the base feat (possibly without the second trained stat from Elite Trainer) and combine Elite Trainer with a one-off version of Training Techniques (i.e. make it the 1.05 version of Elite Trainer). This both solves the base feat issue and lowers the unusual number of feats. In fact, making that change and restricting Ace Trainer to one training style would bring the number of feats down to seven, much more in line with the seven or eight that most classes get.

The other possibility would be to make this a proper [Branch] class like Researcher or one of the specialist classes. The trick here would be to make the half of the class not dedicated to the training styles differentiate so taking it multiple times wouldn't be a waste. One way to do it would be to incorporate Training Techniques into the base feat, moving other feats into a sort of Generalist Style, and allowing you to take two Styles like the Researcher's two branches (this would require giving Generalist Style one more feat, with Training Techniques absorbed into the base feat). The revised base feat might look like this:
Quote:
 
Ace Trainer
[Class][Branch][Gift]
Prerequisites: Rank 3 Command, at least one [Training] Feature
Static
Effect: Choose one of Aggression Training, Agility Training, Brutal Training, Caution Training, Focused Training, or Inspired Training. You gain the chosen Feature, even if you do not meet its prerequisites. In addition, choose two Training Styles. You may take Features from those Styles with this instance of Ace Trainer. Gain one Feature from a chosen Training Style for which you qualify.
Note: You may take Ace Trainer multiple times. Each time you do, you must choose a different [Training] Feature and two different Training Styles.

This might be a little strong considering it grants both the [Training] Feature and a feat from a Training Style but it's a start.

Also, I have to agree that I'm wary about the two new Training Features. Persistent Bonus Damage and Damage Reduction are very rare - most features that grant Damage Reduction only do so conditionally or for only one round (the only ongoing, non-conditional DR I can find offhand is Taskmaster and that requires the Pokémon in question to have five injuries and thus be operating at half its max HP), and every single Bonus Damage option I can find is conditional as well. Perhaps Caution Training should be something like "Once per Scene, a Cautious Pokémon may gain 5 Damage Reduction for one full round." Similarly, Aggressive Training might say "Once per Scene, when an Aggressive Pokémon hits with an attack, it may add +5 Bonus Damage to the damage roll."

(Where I've added suggestions for alternative mechanics, it's largely because they make my point clearer than me blathering on about where I disagree with the existing ones. Also, I freely admit that most of my suggestions are from the point of view where 1.05 is "normal" and don't really take into account arguments about the relative value of certain mechanics - for instance, if you don't see DR stacking to be as much of a problem as it's viewed to be in 1.05, my evaluation of how rare/powerful DR is may seem high.)
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Xavion
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Isn't Analyzing Style nearly useless? When it would it be better to go for +5 Damage Reduction against a single Type instead of using your standard action to apply Caution Training as an Order for +5 damage reduction to both Defense and Special Defense?

Might be missing something due to being still pretty new to the system, but it looks just about useless as applying Caution Training as an Orders should give +5 Damage Reduction against every Type rather than just one, so the only benefit of Analyzing Style is that it lasts until the end of your next turn while Orders lasts until the beginning?
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The Black Glove
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Before I respond to everything, let me just say that it's fantastic to get feedback from people who actually play Ace Trainer. If I knew I was going to get responses like this, I'd have released some sample classes ages ago.

carnackiArdent
Feb 7 2017, 01:08 AM
The thing with the multiple feats is that PTU's classes are deliberately set up so that you can gain most or all of their options without repeat features unless there's a deliberate specialization choice made, at least in 1.05. I'll admit that this has had unfortunate results in some cases (e.g. how linear Musician is, and Martial Artist not being branchable anymore because it's got several feats that would be redundant) but it's a general part of the design philosophy, and constructing classes under a different design philosophy has a tendency to have odd results (like the fact that this version of Ace Trainer could theoretically take up every single feat a trainer can have over the course of their career in a system aimed at multiclassing).
That is a fair point. I'm going to maintain my own philosophy in my own system, but for the sake of PTU players, I can afford to make some adjustments here.

Quote:
 
My first suggestion would be one that brings the class closer to 1.05's Ace Trainer - make Specialized Stat Training the base feat (possibly without the second trained stat from Elite Trainer) and combine Elite Trainer with a one-off version of Training Techniques (i.e. make it the 1.05 version of Elite Trainer). This both solves the base feat issue and lowers the unusual number of feats. In fact, making that change and restricting Ace Trainer to one training style would bring the number of feats down to seven, much more in line with the seven or eight that most classes get.
So what you're suggesting is to make the Training Feature you specialize in part and parcel of the base feature rather than a prerequisite for the class? That could be quite effective, and would save on the "feat tax" players see when they are required to take a feature to get a class. I still disagree with you on combining Training Techniques with Elite Trainer, as that would be placing two effects I consider to be "feature level" in power into a single feature, and I'm not doing that. I have to put my foot down somewhere on where I perceive the game's balance to be.

Quote:
 
The other possibility would be to make this a proper [Branch] class like Researcher or one of the specialist classes. The trick here would be to make the half of the class not dedicated to the training styles differentiate so taking it multiple times wouldn't be a waste. One way to do it would be to incorporate Training Techniques into the base feat, moving other feats into a sort of Generalist Style, and allowing you to take two Styles like the Researcher's two branches (this would require giving Generalist Style one more feat, with Training Techniques absorbed into the base feat). The revised base feat might look like this:
Quote:
 
Ace Trainer
[Class][Branch][Gift]
Prerequisites: Rank 3 Command, at least one [Training] Feature
Static
Effect: Choose one of Aggression Training, Agility Training, Brutal Training, Caution Training, Focused Training, or Inspired Training. You gain the chosen Feature, even if you do not meet its prerequisites. In addition, choose two Training Styles. You may take Features from those Styles with this instance of Ace Trainer. Gain one Feature from a chosen Training Style for which you qualify.
Note: You may take Ace Trainer multiple times. Each time you do, you must choose a different [Training] Feature and two different Training Styles.

This might be a little strong considering it grants both the [Training] Feature and a feat from a Training Style but it's a start.
I'm not giving somebody 2 features for the price of one. If they want to take a Style Feature, they are going to spend a Feature like everyone else.

Quote:
 
Also, I have to agree that I'm wary about the two new Training Features. Persistent Bonus Damage and Damage Reduction are very rare - most features that grant Damage Reduction only do so conditionally or for only one round (the only ongoing, non-conditional DR I can find offhand is Taskmaster and that requires the Pokémon in question to have five injuries and thus be operating at half its max HP), and every single Bonus Damage option I can find is conditional as well. Perhaps Caution Training should be something like "Once per Scene, a Cautious Pokémon may gain 5 Damage Reduction for one full round." Similarly, Aggressive Training might say "Once per Scene, when an Aggressive Pokémon hits with an attack, it may add +5 Bonus Damage to the damage roll."
If I were to write them like that, they wouldn't be [Training] Effects anymore, they would be Scene-Frequency Orders. I do think they could use an adjustment, perhaps set it as conditional damage/DR under certain circumstances, which retains the static effect and gives the player a clear window of "this is when I want to take advantage of [Orders]/Fruits of Our Labor to double/triple the effects". Perhaps Aggression Training can grant +5 to Physical/Special Bonus damage for the next round after using a physical/special move accordingly? Encourages aggression, the kinds of playstyle where the players don't bother with status moves and just go go go. Alternatively, Cautious Style could grant Physical or Special Damage Reduction when the user hasn't used an attack against any foes in the encounter (supportive moves like Helping Hand and Aromatherapy would not trigger this). I'll sketch up some versions of those for the first post.

Quote:
 
(Where I've added suggestions for alternative mechanics, it's largely because they make my point clearer than me blathering on about where I disagree with the existing ones. Also, I freely admit that most of my suggestions are from the point of view where 1.05 is "normal" and don't really take into account arguments about the relative value of certain mechanics - for instance, if you don't see DR stacking to be as much of a problem as it's viewed to be in 1.05, my evaluation of how rare/powerful DR is may seem high.)
DR would only be a problem if there wasn't a way for players to get around it. There are a variety of ways to ignore or reduce DR, such as Flat/% Damage Moves, Status Conditions like Poison or Burn, or even things like disarming an opponent of a shield or other item that grants DR. I'm more likely to worry about evasion, which in PTU I see as given out too freely through stats, and worse, based on the stats used to determine damage reduction.

Xavion
Feb 7 2017, 03:28 AM
Isn't Analyzing Style nearly useless? When it would it be better to go for +5 Damage Reduction against a single Type instead of using your standard action to apply Caution Training as an Order for +5 damage reduction to both Defense and Special Defense?

Might be missing something due to being still pretty new to the system, but it looks just about useless as applying Caution Training as an Orders should give +5 Damage Reduction against every Type rather than just one, so the only benefit of Analyzing Style is that it lasts until the end of your next turn while Orders lasts until the beginning?
What are you talking about? Clearly, I...
Uhhh....
Well !@#$. Sounds like heavy revision of Analyzing Style is in order. Give me a moment.
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Marhatus
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Everyone else covered most of my concerns, so I just want to add that I like this class. All of the styles look like they'd be pretty fun to play.
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