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What is the benefit of choosing to devote stats into the defenses over HP?
Topic Started: Jan 23 2017, 03:54 AM (1,578 Views)
Paperblade
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Pokémon Trainer
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That math is faulty because it assumes a pokemon with defensive investment to the exclusion of any investment in an attack or speed, which biases towards defense since taking more hits to die inherently gives an edge to defenses. And even despite that, we see that all in HP wins out in 2/3 cases. The third case is an outlier--an enemy dealing 31 raw damage, which would require a similar enemy with almost no attack investment. For example, a DB9 move off 10 attack averages 31 damage. How many enemies with 10 attack are you going to fight at level 50?
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Kairose
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I'm bored, so I'm going to redo Goliathus's math attempting to fix the issues you have, and more samples.

Lots of math

In short, defense only is best if opponents with low Attack investment are common, otherwise HP only is best. Balance is almost as good as HP only, but with less weakness to small attacks.
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TimerThyme
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OverGMing
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To add to this already cluttered post, here are the same posts about defense, evasion and HP:
http://forums.pokemontabletop.com/topic/10542954/1/?x=90
http://forums.pokemontabletop.com/topic/10456603/1/?x=90
http://forums.pokemontabletop.com/topic/10260098/1/?x=90
http://forums.pokemontabletop.com/topic/10070908/1/?x=90

Maybe, this need clarifying in the core book as this question comes back pretty often.
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Professor Scamander
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But not factoring in evasion makes this whole thing kind of moot, since that's an advantage defenses give over HP. So in HP only damage should be multiplied by .95 due to attacks hitting 5% less of the time. Balanced should be multiplied by .85 due to 15% higher miss chance, and Defense only should be multiplied by .75 due to having a 25% higher miss chance off defensive investment.

While there are ways to avoid this (no miss attacks, duelist, etc), this experiment is happening in a vaccuum, and then we'd also need to start factoring in Ace Trainer CS buffs and other stuff that helps with Defenses.
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Goliathus
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@Paperblade
The math is solely to determine the effectiveness of duo DEF and HP, not build advice. There is no reason to factor in other stats in the demo itself. Also, As Kairose's math has shown, no matter how you put your stats, it is still pure HP > triple splash > duo DEF in terms of hit-taking capabilities, so there is no reason for me to not put all stats in defense for the demo.

Edit: I should have said it this way. There will be a "middle damage value" when HP and duo DEF take roughly the same hits. The lower the damage value is to the middle value, the more DEF gets better; the higher the damage value is to the middle value, the more HP gets better. Changing the numbers only affect the middle damage value and so but the overview remains the same.

@Professor Scamander
I have mentioned other factors in my post and also the evasion advantage. But to list them out again: tick-based damage and heal, C.S. snowball(both positive and negative), healing move advantage to high HP, no-miss moves, fixed damage moves, damage reduction and so on are all factors to consider. it is indeed done in a vacuum because I am no mathlete to do that kind of maths with all 101 factors and I am sure anyone can consider those things when deciding which stats to take. Since they know the situation of their game and their team composition, they have a better understanding on which stat is better in his game, rather than us trying to figure out which side is generally the best. Furthermore, some Pokemon can't take the optimum stats(if we can find them) anyway if BSN don't allow it. Also, the math demo is merely to show hit-taking abilities of the Pokemon when they are hit not the whole benefit of taking which stats, which means I am ignoring evasion for the demo itself.

And I am sure if anyone care enough they can do the evasion multiplication himself.
Edited by Goliathus, Jan 24 2017, 08:28 AM.
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Flamewolf9
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As promised, here is the spreadsheet so you can go do your own calculations. The final calculation is average number of attacks thrown your way before you are KOed.

Defense vs HP

Things I've included so far

  • Base and Level Up Stats (HP, Defense, Speed)
  • Derived Stats (Max HP, Evasion)
  • Combat Stages
  • Outside Evasion Bonuses
  • Damage Resistance
  • Type Effectiveness
  • Damage Base Auto Calculations
  • Critical Range
  • Accuracy Bonus/Penalty
  • Bonus Damage
  • Final Attack Stat for Attacker
  • Derived Miss, Hit, and Crit Chance and Resulting Damage
If I'm feeling motivated in the future, I might also include some of this stuff in roughly the order listed.

  • Smite, No Miss, Vulnerable
  • Crit Prevention
  • Sniper
  • Per Turn Tick Damage
  • Other Defensive Abilities and Moves
  • Other things that are suggested.
Edited by Flamewolf9, Jan 24 2017, 11:35 AM.
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Arcran
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Honestly, which one is better depends very heavily on the kind of game you're in. If it's a game with almost exclusively 1v1 League fights, HP is probably the way to go as 1v1 fights rarely go more than a few rounds, and healing and such is less likely to come into play.

On the other hand, if you do a lot of full contact battles it shifts a bit towards Defense, as a full contact battle will tend to have more combatants, which means more attacks, which means Defense gets a better chance to shine as well as Evasion.

Of course, this is all pretty general, so your experiences may vary.
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Paperblade
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I don't really consider tick damage more effective either way, it's 10 ticks to ko regardless of how much hp or defense you have (save a few feats), ditto for % based healing.

I'll admit that defenses are probably more valuable than I had originally thought but I tend to play high damage characters so I may be biased by anecdotal experience
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Flamewolf9
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Tell that to a hunter and her pack hunting partner. when you shave off an extra 20% of a targets life just for hitting with 2 AoOs, that's good damage especially against well defended targets. Healing in general is improved by having more defenses to hide behind. The point of purely healing is that you spend one turn healing to cost your opponents 2 or more turns to undo the effects of the healing. Or force them to use more damaging/riskier/lower frequency attacks.

I agree that Evasion and Speed are missing from this comparison and to present results without them as a consideration is not showing a complete picture. % Chance to take no damage is a huge factor when considering defenses and Speed does it better than no other. I'll try and generate some numbers to show for this later on.
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Paperblade
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I mean, when you say well defended, do you mean "high defenses stat" or just tanks from having high hp and/or defenses. Tick damage is definitely better relatively vs something with bulk investment than a sweeper build, but I don't think I particularly care how the tanks stats are laid out
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