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What is your DM Pokemon boss philosophy?
Topic Started: Mar 12 2016, 12:03 AM (1,053 Views)
Articuno is a beast
Pokémon Trainer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
When it comes to boss creation what do you believe an ideal boss fight looks like?

The boss and the last player standing come in for the final round of combat and the players edge out victorious while the last man standing uses all the revives he's carrying to bring up the players?

The boss comes in looking tough and scruff but your players are victorious without a single fainted pokemon?

The boss comes in and sneezes and the force of the sneeze causes your players to TPK.
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aturtledoesbite
Pokémon Trainer
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If the players are at full health, I might expect half their teams to faint before the boss falls. Ideally, they'd have to burn resources to get that full health to start with.

If they didn't start the battle fighting-fit, well...I better see some creative solutions.
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Dark Shadow
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Reploid
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Oh, I'll, ah, repost this here, because I think more people look at the PTU section:
Quote:
 

When, until the end, nobody knows who's going to win.

Bonus points if the players even think that there's no way they can pull it off, then they do.
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Shirokiba
Pokémon Trainer
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Dark Shadow
Mar 12 2016, 12:57 AM
Oh, I'll, ah, repost this here, because I think more people look at the PTU section:
Quote:
 

When, until the end, nobody knows who's going to win.

Bonus points if the players even think that there's no way they can pull it off, then they do.
this is one that has to be handled carefully. I've seen a few players feel cheated when things go that way, because they think the DM miscalculated the encounter and ended up having to let them win. Mostly due to the lack of any visible ques that they were actually making any impact. When properly handled, it can be very tense and make for an enjoyable encounter, unless the dice gods become fickle.
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Grand Silver
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2 kewl 4 u!
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I'll repeat myself as well

I like bosses that can get lot's of dialogue going.

One boss actually made a player tear up due to how she played with his characters emotions.

Win or lose I love when the bosses leave an emotional impact on the party in some way.
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Articuno is a beast
Pokémon Trainer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
I've set up my players against these pokegod's called alpha's that are near legendary status of a certain species but are tuned for a certain level. Each time they come across one they almost always pass their skill checks to find out what's packing in their kit. They usually complain about what's packed into their kit but have emerged victorious each time. with 0 pokemon or players deaths. Sometimes with no pokemon faints. Each time I hear why is this thing that strong!?!?! But i'm super relucatant to tune down my my alpha's and the mindset I have for these things because they have become successful each time. They three manned this encounter with three pokemon a piece and this kit looks ridiculous I know but they still won. Side note Their 3 pokemon are all around level 15-20 and their trainer levels range from 14-16.

Upon tracking down the entity your team finds a Shiny Oversized Hypno. From a distance it appears to be sleeping upright. When your team begins to approach (within 15 meters) they will notice something isn't quite right. DC 15 perception check (Reveals that they are actually no longer in their body. They see their bodies aimlessly wandering around outside a purpleish barrier that they actually can't leave from). As they approach to engage in combat

This Fight has 4 phases. At the 250 total hp and second 100total Hp bar they are inside a 15m mind barrier that they can not escape from. At the 1st 100total hp bar and the 50total hp bar they are outside of it.

Alpha Hypno:
HP Total: 250, 100, 100, 50
Atk: 10
Def: 20
Sp Atk.: 30
Sp Def.: 30
Speed: 20, 10

Basic Alpha:
Only takes 1/2 tick of hp from status effects
Ignores LoS
Cannot be Sleeped

wonder Shield
Static
Defensive
Effect: Whenever Alpha Hypno is Attacked an aura shines around it and gains resistance against that type until the end of the next round.

It's all in your head
Static
Defensive
Effect: While engaged in combat with Alpha Hypno in the mind barrier Type all type effectiveness is set to x1 (does not effect wondershield resistance)


Struggle Snuggle
Static
Defensive
Effect: Players inside the mind barrier may attempt to make an action using their outside body with a DC15 Check.


Moves:
Submit!
Damage base 8
AC: 8
Range: 8, 1 target
Psychic
At-Will
Effect: Never Misses while inside the mind barrier and ignores defenses. Flinches the target.

Obey!
Status
Psychic
AC: 12
Once A round
Effect: Never Misses while inside the mind barrier. Alpha Hypno Takes over the mind a target and take's their turn.

Terror!
Damage Base 10
AC: 15
Special
At-Will
Burst 1
Effect: Never Misses while targets are within 1 meter of the user and they are not in the mind barrier. All Targets hit by Terror! Must immediately flee using their maximum movement to run away from Alpha Hypno. They Become Flinched after their movement is complete.

Mind over Matter
Status
Once an HP Bar
Effect: Alpha hypno summons 3 Floating Pendulums. Alpha Hypno May Choose to expend a pendulum to deflect any ranged attack or status move.


I don't know. Like I'm distraught that my players feel that I'm giving them overtuned bosses to kill yet they beat them without any actual repercussions as in player deaths. They usually have a 4-5man compliment and they were able to 3 man this and I feel kinda defeated that they feel this way.
Edited by Articuno is a beast, Mar 12 2016, 02:13 AM.
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Dark Shadow
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Reploid
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Shirokiba
Mar 12 2016, 01:30 AM
Dark Shadow
Mar 12 2016, 12:57 AM
Oh, I'll, ah, repost this here, because I think more people look at the PTU section:

Quoting limited to 2 levels deep
this is one that has to be handled carefully. I've seen a few players feel cheated when things go that way, because they think the DM miscalculated the encounter and ended up having to let them win. Mostly due to the lack of any visible ques that they were actually making any impact. When properly handled, it can be very tense and make for an enjoyable encounter, unless the dice gods become fickle.
I suppose it helped for my case in that it was a Gym battle. So, they could see progress, but the Gym Leader played with their expectations with items and Features. I think the most important part was that both sides were losing 'Mon at a fairly equal enough rate that it felt like both sides were evenly matched.

So, thinking more on this, I think the feeling need to be, whether true or not, that the boss can at least match the PCs.
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Affinity of Denial
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The last Chef
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OP: For you to get as much help as possible, and for us to get a better idea of how to help you, we need you to tell us the spec's of your party. The pokemon they use, the stats, moves, abilities etc... What do the Trainers have as classes? What are their specialties? What is their style of fighting? We only have the bosses you continue to home-brew as a basis for what is going on and that is not enough to make an informed decision.

Aside from that I have to say that looking at this thing, I don't think it has much potential for fighting and winning. You need to look at it from an objective viewpoint, and this things movepool consists of 2 moves that can be used as damaging attacks, a "steal a players turn" status, and a defensive move that protects against statuses and ranged attacks. Given that all of the moves have a high chance of missing when they are outside the mind barrier, and sorely under-perform in damage/ability I have to say I am not impressed with what I see. Home-brewing things can be just fine as long as you know what you are doing. Striking a fine line with what you are home-brewing and balance can be difficult. I think that you may need to hold back on home-brewing everything for Alphas because it makes trying to figure out how balanced the thing is when everything is home-brewed. It seems more like it was made to look cool than to actually function as a living being with the intention of surviving a fight.

Finally I have to ask: Have you been a player of the PTU system before? You may need to get into the mindset of the player going up against one of your bosses and how you would handle fighting it if you were the player in this situation. It might be able to help you with preparing the challenge to be better built towards your group.
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CateranEnforcer
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I don't have any real PTU experience but have done lots lots of GMing in other systems. I think there's a lot of good advice in this thread regarding boss encounters and I have some thoughts of my own.

Firstly, in many games I have found that giant single enemies tend to make for boring boss encounters without a lot of special circumstances. Phases in the fight definitely help in this regard, giving the players a sense of progress as they chew into the pile of HP in front of them. What you don't want is everyone moving up around the boss and just using their attacks. Encourage movement; shift the environment, have extra enemies join the fight, give the boss lots of ways to move, or combination of these. Be careful of making it seem to 'gamey' as well when you change phases. I like the transition to seemlessly fit into the action and not seem like an MMO raid boss.

For example, I might make an encounter against a giant Ice pokemon take place on top of a frozen lake. Ice might make it hard for certain players to maneuver at first, but it's nothing they can't handle. A phase change might occur when the boss feels threatened and stomps the ice, breaking the lake up into a series of frozen platforms. Some PC's may be sent flying into blistering cold waters and have to use skill checks to balance, swim, or jump into good positions. The boss could use this confusion to flee to its lair or to keep fighting. Either way, I'd likely have allies show up to help it, from the water or guarding its lair.

One thing that set up also does in that example is keep the pressure up. Just when the players think things are going really well, you throw a new variable in the equation. It can be hard to avoid sometimes, but combats will often have those 'clean up' turns where victory is assured and you are just grinding out the last few turns. In the above example, even if the PC's win, they may still have the problem of the frozen platforms or tracking down the boss.

I also tend to prefer boss fights with a group of enemies, largely since they help a lot with regard to players feeling a sense of progress and action economy of the enemies. You might not have the players feel as cheated, for example, when they fight a group of powerful enemies versus one large one that's likely resists their stunning or other controlling effects.

And of course it depends on your players and the powers they have. You want to let the players have a chance to use their fun abilities they've earned up to this point and be effective. Give a chance for the guy with area attacks nuke a bunch of dudes. Give the guy with a defensive skills a reason to use them. Give the crazy damage dealers some tough targets to bring down. You do also want to hit them where they're weak as well, but not in an unfair way. You don't want to hose someone for how they've built their character.

In short, a lot of thought goes into a satisfying boss encounter, and things might not turn out how you want them. Take cues from your players and see what they enjoy and just do your best.
Edited by CateranEnforcer, Mar 12 2016, 02:41 PM.
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The Sneaky Prinny
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Optional Bonus Boss
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First, what level boss is this? Is this a mid-boss, a freakishly powerful random encounter, the boss of the evening, the boss of the arc, the boss of the campaign, or the boss of multiple campaigns, bringing together multiple players from multiple games? Is this boss supposed to teach the layers some lesson, or is it supposed to be a progress bump? How invested do you feel the players will be at this point?
Bosses can have very nuanced features based on what specifically this boss is supposed to do, both on a narrative and a gameplay level. The dimension devouring god is going to play very differently than the unusually good flamboyant clown that tails the party and battles them at very inconvenient times.

Most important, Drama. A good show is better than a tough fight. Make the players feel like the world rests on this fight, without overselling it. Make the fight memorable, give the boss special moves, and add in various stages and forms to the fight. People like professional wrestling because there is a show. Give those people a show!

Fight smart! Make sure your boss doesn't fall prey to its own stupidity. Getting to a position of power requires wit, in most cases. Don't let your badass creation fall for an old-fashioned Tank 'n' spank! Have them hunt down the medic, make them shatter those glass cannons when they can, and make sure they thwart the BSF's dream of getting hit in the face by every attack the boss throws. Make the Trainers targets!

Minions: whatever fits here, maybe they aren't even on the same team, but are just the local Rattata population in a panic. They make the players less able to easily retreat and maneuver more than anything else. They help increase the tension without really increasing the difficulty all that much, but they do threaten long, drawn out, and cheesy tactics by the players, which is also a good thing.

A TPK on the player's side, or a flawless victory are both signs that something went wrong. Sometimes the dice fall in a certain way, but somewhere between the two is ideal. A common myth is that every boss needs to be as close to the former as possible. One player being out of commission, another on their last legs, and a third broken because their starter died before the boss finally goes down is suitably powerful, make no mistake, but where will you go from there? If the party suffers that much from the Lord of the Forest, how will you make the point that the evil god sealed in the desert ruins is any worse? Save the skin of their teeth victory for when it is really special, not every time they face a team X admin.

Weaponize player expectations! So the players invade team X's headquarters, square off against the leader... and completely wipe the floor with him. "That was easy" they say. "Too easy, in fact..." at this point you spring your trap. Have a boss that turns out to be a pushover, only to have HIS boss come in and open up on the players who may have just blown their dailies.

Control Reality: You get to shape the arena, you get to pick the moves used by the boss, and yet so often a boss battle takes place in a 50 foot featureless open room, with six different forms of "Boss Punches enemy in the face". Liven it up! Have the Boss throw people! Fill the room with holes, and make a ramp to a plateau in the corner. Put the boss on a hill, and let him vomit grease down it, making even reaching him a challenge. Make your boss be totally immune to charging down its throat until you solve the arena puzzle first. Give the trainers something to do while their pokemon occupy the boss. You can make literally anything happen, so make sure the fight is dynamic, fast paced, and interesting, not just a line up and punch each-other fest.

Improvise: You know what this boss does. They don't. If you suddenly decide this boss needs the ability to turn an area of stone into mud, the players won't know that you just now made up this ability. This is the single greatest strength of a tabletop game over a video game. React to what is happening, make this enemy tenacious! Make him cheat! This is a villain (probably), make it act like one!
Related to this, invent bosses! Maybe one of your players decides they have a beef with the wandering salesmen who sells dog-like pokemon for a living. Don't just let that die! Make that salesmen an important figure! Have him team up with his business partner, the Turtle salesmen for a boss battle! No doubt the evil team Y has room in their ranks for a new face or two, as well.
Edited by The Sneaky Prinny, Mar 12 2016, 02:58 PM.
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