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Balance Issues; why no DM Handbook?
Topic Started: Feb 16 2016, 09:43 AM (1,206 Views)
Articuno is a beast
Pokémon Trainer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
So I have been hosting as a DM on roll20 for about 3 months now. My players are not necessarily meta gamers but they like finding great interactions between the classes they play.

The biggest Issue I have with PTU is Two things. The power level of player characters. The lack of strength wild Pokémon have compared to the players and their caught pokemon. Now obviously you want an example.

before I switched over to an open world survival version of pokemon DND. I decided to give them one last task. They had to beat the ghost gym. The layout was like this, It was the lavender tower where a you did a mini-dungeon prior too with various skill challenges, puzzles just to soften up their pokemon.

I had Agatha set up as a dark ace, stat ace, ace trainer and commander fully maxed in all those abilities. Then had them fight all at once in a labyrinth against 5 fully evolved pokemon which were levels 35,40,45,45 and 50. I did everything and tried to abuse every single ability the ghost pokemon had in a labyrinth. Guess what Happened not one single pokemon of theirs got knocked out.
Player Levels were all level 8-15 Pokémon Levels none higher than 25. In addition to that they were all limited to having 3 pokemon in their belt. Still didn't matter because none of their pokemon fainted.

Ok also fighting trainers are a little ridiculous in how absurdly powerful. In the sense that they get pokemon abilities. Actual freaking pokemon abilities where they can get stinking stab. You wanna know what's broke? Hex Maniac like what's going on here. Locking down 2 pokemon out of every fight by Hypnosis+Hex? Yes it's an awesome combo but from on the DM side I cannot actually challenge my players in an open world environment literally ever.

So for me to be able to challenge my players I have had to edit the PDF somewhat for my pokemon survival campaign. Letting them pick only intro class abilities off the bat. Battling and Crafting Classes at level 5. Specialty at 10, Fighting at 15 and supernatural at 20.

It feels like the only real effective way for players to feel like they are gaining moderate increases in power rather than going straight into fighting and supernatural.

I've also level gated and removed some orders like strike again cant be accessed til trainer level 15.

I've also removed the weapon manuevers section. There are way too many weapon maneuvers when the trainers are already extremely powerful.

What I really want is a DM Handbook that the players won't be using that I can adjust the wild encounters to make them more challenging. A couple Ideas.

Highest Pokemon Level is 1 - Pack Mentality: If a pokemon spots another of it's kind within it's perception range getting attacked it will attempt to assist.

Highest Pokemon Level is 10 - Born of the wild: The harsh enviroment of living in the wild has made feral pokemon hardy and resillient. +2 stat points to it's highest stat.

Highest Pokemon Level is 15 - Natural Senses: If there is combat on a tile increase the perception range of that pokemon by half it's total distance.

Highest Pokemon Level is 20 - Survival of the fittest: Upon being the last surviving member in a pack (4 or more) Last Chance with it's typing and resists all damage one step further.

Highest Pokemon Level is 25 - Internal Speed: Movement speed increases by 1.

Highest Pokemon Level is 30 - Transcend Perfection: Wild fully evolved pokemon gain +5 DR and +10 Damage


All in all my PTU PDF is a mangled mess right now with no real answer on how to handle the action economy which I may have to find how to handle that on my own.
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GrayGriffin
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"Ah, you unmasked me. Whatever shall I do."
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There's literally a whole chapter for DMs in the handbook? With a bunch of rules for boss fights, gym fights, and swarms?
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Doxy
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The PTU Guy
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Quote:
 
Then had them fight all at once in a labyrinth against 5 fully evolved pokemon which were levels 35,40,45,45 and 50. I did everything and tried to abuse every single ability the ghost pokemon had in a labyrinth. Guess what Happened not one single pokemon of theirs got knocked out.
Player Levels were all level 8-15 Pokémon Levels none higher than 25. In addition to that they were all limited to having 3 pokemon in their belt. Still didn't matter because none of their pokemon fainted.


I'd really like to know how that fight went, because that sounds pretty impossible. Generally, even against wild Pokemon, it's pretty easy to make several Pokemon on the PC sides faint, even if the levels are equal. Truly challenging a party of PCs -can- be difficult sometimes, but they're by no means invulnerable.

I can't really say more without knowing specifics, but I can say that your experience doesn't really seem typical from how myself or others run games.

P.S. - The "Strike Again" Order -is- definitely OP at the moment though, so I definitely see why you would want to limit that one.
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BatiroAtrain
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Pyramid King
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This honestly just sounds like a case of bad planning and luck. Hex is obviously going to wreck a Ghost-type that's asleep with SE DB14 damage, especially in a one-vs-everyone situation, but unless you give us the specifics of that fight, that's all I can say.
Edited by BatiroAtrain, Feb 16 2016, 01:45 PM.
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The Sneaky Prinny
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Optional Bonus Boss
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If your party is surpassing the level you thought would challenge them, then it is time to resort to one of the great GM tricks. The most basic form is to just pump up the levels and HP on everything until equilibrium is reached, and keep in mind checks to a character's ringer strategy. Don't always eliminate the tactic, but plan for it one way or another. If your players are putting everything to sleep, consider adding a few Pokemon with Insomnia to teams you had planned that didn't have them before, for example.

The other thing to consider is the action economy and its impact on solo battles. Due to the way turn flow works, one action of your boss monster is worth considerably more than one of the three actions your players get every round. Therefore, tactics revolving around either denying turns to the boss or making those turns less effective are of massively increased value versus a standard enemy. If facing savvy players that understand this (as it sounds like you have), you have two answers. Give bosses an extra turn spaced between the party, or else give them minions or more than one boss at a time. Surely it would be plausible that, say, Agetha is such an amazing trainer that she can double or triple battle while the others single battle, or else command one Pokemon so well that it is like fighting two?
A third answer is to give the boss monsters ways of shutting down or separating the party for a time. Not only will this address the power of your players, but it will make for tense moments as one player has to dig in their heels and hold out until the others can recover. Granted, you will probably have to contrive a few things, but so long as you don't get predictable, your players will probably either not realize they've been had, or be completely cool with it. Players tend to be forgiving when the rules get a bit wobbly around bosses, provided you make it cool enough, and don't make it look like GM fiat.

In short, take steps to protect the actions of any opponent designed to be a challenge to the party by its lonesome (even if it is to be a sequence of such solo battles), and keep the game dynamic and reactive to the abilities and strength of the players' characters.
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Articuno is a beast
Pokémon Trainer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
The Sneaky Prinny
Feb 16 2016, 09:42 PM
If your party is surpassing the level you thought would challenge them, then it is time to resort to one of the great GM tricks. The most basic form is to just pump up the levels and HP on everything until equilibrium is reached, and keep in mind checks to a character's ringer strategy. Don't always eliminate the tactic, but plan for it one way or another. If your players are putting everything to sleep, consider adding a few Pokemon with Insomnia to teams you had planned that didn't have them before, for example.

The other thing to consider is the action economy and its impact on solo battles. Due to the way turn flow works, one action of your boss monster is worth considerably more than one of the three actions your players get every round. Therefore, tactics revolving around either denying turns to the boss or making those turns less effective are of massively increased value versus a standard enemy. If facing savvy players that understand this (as it sounds like you have), you have two answers. Give bosses an extra turn spaced between the party, or else give them minions or more than one boss at a time. Surely it would be plausible that, say, Agetha is such an amazing trainer that she can double or triple battle while the others single battle, or else command one Pokemon so well that it is like fighting two?
A third answer is to give the boss monsters ways of shutting down or separating the party for a time. Not only will this address the power of your players, but it will make for tense moments as one player has to dig in their heels and hold out until the others can recover. Granted, you will probably have to contrive a few things, but so long as you don't get predictable, your players will probably either not realize they've been had, or be completely cool with it. Players tend to be forgiving when the rules get a bit wobbly around bosses, provided you make it cool enough, and don't make it look like GM fiat.

In short, take steps to protect the actions of any opponent designed to be a challenge to the party by its lonesome (even if it is to be a sequence of such solo battles), and keep the game dynamic and reactive to the abilities and strength of the players' characters.

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GrayGriffin
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"Ah, you unmasked me. Whatever shall I do."
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
I think you forgot to add a response to that quote.
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theweirdest1
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How many players are you running?
The big thing that always got me when I started running this game two years back (*hugs developers for nerfing super effective damage*), was that you wind up having may more combat-effective players than you would with a DnD game. So if you have 3 mon each for 4 trainers, you essentially have 12 factors that you have to stat a fight against, and if one dies, than it is replaced instantly. Those are some pretty harsh odds.

To this end, I tend to use 1 of 3 strategies, but they each come with their own downsides.

1.) Gank the trainer. This is the cheap way of doing things, but if the enemy mon are halfway intelligent, they know that if they down the player, they will stop sending out new mon to fight them. Why fight fair when your enemy wields an army? The upside to this is that it makes things, especially things in a survival scenario, more dire. There are no boop-boop-ba-ding-ding machines for humans. More than that, the players may have to rely on cover mechanics. The downside is that it feels bad for the player, even a bit like you are angry at them or at least going a bit too far. This isn't a strategy to rely on much, only when things are getting bad, or you want to make something a big threat.
Ignore this point when talking about combat-class trainers. They expect to be in the thick of things, so let them take a hit or two. This more applies the squishies in the back.

2.) Summon the Horde. How do you fight the army? With another army of course. This should go without saying, but this causes the fights to last a very long time, and generally causes a lot of paperwork, but if you like statting lots of things, this is the mode to go for. It doesn't always work, obviously, but it does deal with the problem of not being able to take down a trainer's mon. Just throw bodies at it, and it will eventually fall. Pokemon roam around in packs all the time, no reason one can't find the party. Pack of the Shinx family can be terrifying.

3.) Screw the Rules, I'm a Boss. This is my personal favorite, and is essentially what part of the "for GMs" section says (also, read that section). Sometimes you want something to be terrifying, but the stats don't quite work out. Make them work. You're the GM. What you say goes. Double that HP pool. Give it more than one initiative round. It's perfectly fine to fudge the numbers a bit. The downside is that, sometimes, your players can catch the terrifying thing, but just don't let them. Failing that, just use a reason that the domestication that a pokeball does makes the mon weaker than its wild counterpart.

Anyway, that's all I got right now.
Edited by theweirdest1, Feb 19 2016, 03:32 PM.
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