| Welcome to Pokemon Tabletop. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
| Cutthroat: is a +1 Damage Base actually worth it?; Or "Is putting yourself within arms reach of an opponent a wise tradeoff?" | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 4 2015, 10:12 PM (1,855 Views) | |
| Sgt. Cookie | Sep 4 2015, 10:12 PM Post #1 |
![]()
Not sure what's going on
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Cutthroat is certainly a useful feature, badass too (What other system allows a 1st level character to become Bullseye?). And it offers you a choice: Small Melee Weapons or Short Range Weapons. Small Melee Weapons provide +1 Damage Base to the attack, no frills attached. Short Range Weapons allow you to make the attack with a 4 Meter Range. But, the question becomes: How valuable is +1 Damage Base to the various Rogue moves? Through the POWER OF MATHEMATICS! I have arrived at an answer: Not fucking very. Here's the spreadsheet we will be working from. Not only does it include baseline Rogue moves, but also Type Expertise (AKA: STAB) affected Rogue moves. It details the difference between the Average damage and the Maximum damage for both the basic move and the Cutthroat boosted move. As you can see on the sheet, with baseline rogue moves, the average damage boost isn't that great. Assurance (Boosted) gets the "Golden" +5 bonus damage, while Payback (Boosted) gets a slightly-better-than-the-rest +3 damage. The rest only get a measly +2, including Assurance and Payback in their non-boosted states. Now, Assurance only gets the golden +5... once per opponent. And Payback needs you to be hit by an opponent to get the +3. Yeah... Not looking good. But what does +1 Damage Base mean for the Maximum damage? That's a slightly different story, Payback comes on top. Payback (Boosted) gets a whopping +6 bonus. Ordinary Payback, Assurance (Boosted), Sucker Punch and Pursuit all get a +4 bonus. The rest still have a +2 bonus. Better, certainly, but... this is the theoretical maximum damage. Useful, undoubtedly, but not something that matters at the table. Now, we get to Type Expertise Rogue Moves. Is an extra +1 worthwhile now? Still no. I'm not going to do the song and dance again, you can see the results for yourself. But suffice to say, Payback (Boosted) and Assurance (Boosted) are still at the top. Both situational boosts. Sucker Punch and Pursuit (Boosted) come slightly ahead in the Average Damage category, but the rest the boost is the same. +2. The max damage here is interesting, with only Pursuit (Normal) being stuck with a measly +2 bonus. Sucker Punch gets a massive boost here, +6 maximum, over +3 average, but the result is still the same. The situational damage bonus of Assurance and Payback is still the king. This is not a good thing for you. So, to summarise, a +1 Damage Bonus is pretty ineffectual. Small Melee Weapons just aren't worth it for Rogues. You're putting yourself close to the enemy for no real trade off. The best option is to go with Short Range Weapons, they keep you at a distance. In order to fix this, the best option would not be a Damage Base addition, but rather a flat bonus to damage. Seriously, at lower damage bases, which Weapons are more likely to affect, +5 damage is better than +1 DB. At higher levels, +5 Damage is literally the average damage scaling DB to DB. The ONLY time +1DB is strictly better than +5 Damage, is increasing a DB16 attack to a DB17 one, which is +10 Average Damage. Large Melee Weapons: AC +1, +10 Damage Small Melee Weapons: +5 Damage Short Range Weapons: No change Long Range Weapons: AC +1, +5 Damage (Long Range Weapon stuff here) -Sgt. Cookie |
![]() |
|
| Nomad | Sep 5 2015, 03:56 AM Post #2 |
![]()
Pokémon Trainer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The main advantage of cutthroat is it allowing you to use your rogue skills for wielding a weapon and/or getting ranged attacks. Unfortunately, if you get high combat and use a small weapon, cutthroat becomes very inefficient and personally I'd let a player respec that feature if they plan on continuing to use small weapons. Although if you have other weapon attack mods, cutthroat can be a nice way to add other perks to cutthroat. Pretty much any of the game of throhs weapon classes can justify cutthroat if you have them. |
![]() |
|
| Pandora | Sep 5 2015, 01:17 PM Post #3 |
|
Cursed
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
This is a good analysis, numbers-wise. Just as a small, insignificant side note, however: who says you can't carry both weapon types? They're both one-handed types, so have a main hand and an off-hand, and you can always have the best of both. Granted, short range still covers melee range, so it's not a great benefit, aside from having access to the small melee weapon moves. It would be different if short range weapons had a penalty within melee range, but that might be too harsh... |
![]() |
|
| Sgt. Cookie | Sep 5 2015, 01:26 PM Post #4 |
![]()
Not sure what's going on
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Well, for starters there's a -2 accuracy penalty for a weapon in your off hand. If you REALLY wanted to, you could, but it's sub-optimal. But the question being asked here is, "is trading range for +1DB a good trade?" and the answer to that is no. |
![]() |
|
| Nomad | Sep 5 2015, 02:29 PM Post #5 |
![]()
Pokémon Trainer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Of course, that's not so much an issue with cutthroat, as it's an issue between ranged and melee weapons in general. |
![]() |
|
| theweirdest1 | Sep 5 2015, 02:59 PM Post #6 |
|
Pokémon Trainer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I think Attacks of Opportunity did a lot to make the melee range moves more viable, so I don't think it's as easy as number vs. number. A lot of this comes down to how many enemies there are, movement capabilities, how many of your party are decent at combat, etc. I think the issue comes in the question of, "can you use short range weapons as melee weapons?" which is a little unclear, but would probably be a no, despite the wording of the range of short range being essentially melee plus 3. It's weird, but I don't see it as a calculation rather than a choice. also, rouge by itself is kind of an odd class, and is much better supplemented by what other classes the character has. Edited by theweirdest1, Sep 5 2015, 03:00 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| Nomad | Sep 5 2015, 03:51 PM Post #7 |
![]()
Pokémon Trainer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
You're allowed to use ranged weapon in melee, the attack of opportunity only comes up if you make an attack against a non-adjacent unit while other enemies are adjacent. |
![]() |
|
| theweirdest1 | Sep 5 2015, 09:40 PM Post #8 |
|
Pokémon Trainer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
and if they move out of your range without using disengage. So depending on your team comp, I think you can make it work. |
![]() |
|
| Major | Sep 6 2015, 03:13 AM Post #9 |
|
Pokémon Trainer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
You can have cheap-shot on an off-hand weapon by the way. Free extra move, free auto-hit without using up a slot on your main weapon, etc. (Hell, even without cheap shot you can have a ranged as your main hand and then use a melee offhand to slightly buff feint attack). Still a free buff As for ranged vs melee, to be fair ranged value depends a lot on what you are fighting while extra damage is always nice. Sure, short range weapons are nice, but if you plan on being in melee anyways due to things like flanking, AoO, abilities, etc. why would you take a short ranged weapon? Its basically a "fairly useful on occasion" vs "tiny boost always" And the question being +1DB a "good trade" isn't the question. It doesn't JUST come with the DB unless you are saying "Why would I use small one-handed vs short ranged". At which point rogue is completely pointless. And considering any amount of damage is still an increase its not a definite no. Example: I have a character who uses small melee weapons and wouldn't trade them in for short ranged. Sure, short ranged weapons can be useful, but I'm a melee fighter anyways due to pack-hunt, AoO, Teamwork on my mons, flanking, etc (counter stance), etc. Since I'm pretty much always going to be in melee anyways I'd rather have a damage boost over a "on the rare occasion where I want a couple extra meters and my overland isn't already high enough due to master athletics/acrobatics" Edited by Major, Sep 6 2015, 04:35 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Nomad | Sep 6 2015, 06:26 AM Post #10 |
![]()
Pokémon Trainer
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
"fairly useful on occasion" Any time you don't start right on the opponent, the range will help you get the first blow. If a mobile target runs away, range will help you stay in range. If a desired target hides behind others, range can help you reach them. If a single enemy has anti melee abilities. If you're low but want to help from behind a frontline. While some classes give bonuses to melee, outside that it's more like, only on occasion, range isn't giving some edge over 2 damage. Part of this is scaling as at beggining levels 2 damage can be a notable upgrade but later on that +2 is less and less relevant compared to the utility of ranged attacks. |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Pokemon: Tabletop United · Next Topic » |
- Pages:
- 1
- 2
| Track Topic · E-mail Topic |
12:06 PM Jul 11
|
Pokéball created by Sarah & Delirium of the ZNR






![]](http://z4.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)





12:06 PM Jul 11