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For the love of God, please fix Double Strike in the next revision; Double Strikes mechanics are terrible
Topic Started: Jul 21 2015, 08:44 PM (2,823 Views)
Giant2005
Pokémon Trainer
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Okay so double-Strike works like this:
If only one attack hits, then double-strike is simple - it works as if ithe Double-Strike property didn't even exist.
If both attacks hit, it gets messy as hell. You double the damage base, then apply Stab to it. If one of the attacks hit, then you had the (original damage base + Stab) to the doubled damage base + Stab damage. If both attacks crit, you add 2(Orignal damage base + Stab) + doubled damage base + Stab.
As you can see it is an absolute nightmare.

Compounding the issue further (And what initiated this rant in the first place), is the Double Down Signature Technique which applies effects and effect ranges to only a single hit of the Double-Strike.
I just added that modification to my Turtwig's Mega Drain and it has become so insanely messy that I am not even sure it is possible to roll it out perfectly.
If only one attack hits, it is fine.
If both attacks hit, I have to double the damage base, apply Stab and compare that to the target's SpDef and type Immunities to determine damage. I then roll the original damage base twice and subtract the lesser of those rolls from the result of my Stab+2*Damage Base, apply that against the target's SpDef and type Immunities and then halve the result to determine how many HP I get back.

If both attacks hit and 1 of them crits, I have to double the damage base, apply Stab, add the original damage base + Stab, and compare that combined result to the target's SpDef and type Immunities to determine damage. I then roll the original damage base twice and subtract the lesser of those rolls from the result of my (Stab+2*Damage Base)+Stab(Damagebase) roll, apply that against the target's SpDef and type Immunities and then halve the result to determine how many HP I get back.

If both attacks hit and crit, I have to double the damage base, apply Stab, add 2*(the original damage base + Stab), and compare that combined result to the target's SpDef and type Immunities to determine damage. I then roll the original damage base twice and subtract the lesser of those rolls from the result of my (Stab+2*Damage Base)+2*(Stab +damage base) roll, apply that against the target's SpDef and type Immunities and then halve the result to determine how many HP I get back.

If you read that last paragraph, it is pretty damn easy to see that the entire thing is a mechanical nightmare - I think I will literally be waking up with cold sweats thinking about this. I just isn't workable... Please, please do something about this.
Edited by Giant2005, Jul 21 2015, 08:44 PM.
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Domo
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Kawaii Detective
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The only weird part is the way Double Strike interacts with crit and STAB at the same time. This is a question that I don't really feel comfortable giving an answer on, so you may want to direct it at the general questions thread so a dev can look at it. At any rate, you shouldn't be rolling damage twice, you should be rolling the full damage pool once - I understand the confusion with the keyword, but your examples don't even make sense. Let's look at an easy case.

If both attacks hit with your Double Strike Mega Drain with STAB:

You should roll ([DB x 2] + STAB), in this case a total DB of 10, plus your Special Attack. That's it, that is all that you roll. Then you compare enemy Special Defense and typing, then your GM should tell you either how much it dealt so you can calculate healing or just tell you how much you heal. Mega Drain heals based off total damage dealt and triggers at the end of calculation, so you get healed by half the inflicted damage once. The Double Down tech prevents you from trying to heal half inflicted damage twice (or, you know, total inflicted damage), but doesn't force you to weirdly calculate it the way you are trying to.

If Double Strike is legitimately an issue in your game, you can go for a bandaid houserule:

Double Strike: Whenever a Move with the Double Strike keyword is used, make two Attack Rolls. If only one hits, use the listed Damage Base. If both hit, double the listed Damage Base. For each critical hit rolled, add an additional ten damage to the final damage roll.

This removes the stickiest and most confusing part of the keyword and replaces it with the average damage you'd be getting out of most Double Strike Moves anyway (though it is a slight boost in damage for any Moves DB3 and under, like standard Twinneedle).
Edited by Domo, Jul 22 2015, 12:03 AM.
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Giant2005
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Domo
Jul 21 2015, 11:58 PM
The Double Down tech prevents you from trying to heal half inflicted damage twice (or, you know, total inflicted damage), but doesn't force you to weirdly calculate it the way you are trying to.
Is that actually confirmed? That would go a long way in helping me stay sane if it is correct.
I just figured that if the Effect can only be triggered once, then it would only apply to one of the attacks (And result in me having to figure out the damage of one of the two strikes).
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Jacquerel
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You are seriously overthinking it.

Quote:
 
The Move gains the Double Strike keyword. Effects and Effect-Ranges may be triggered only once (but either roll may trigger the effect).
You roll twice to hit and determine the damage. You roll once to determine the attack's damage, after you have rolled to hit.
Effects that require a certain range (like crits) benefit from an increased chance to apply as you are rolling twice. Effects which always apply, only apply once. Effects based on the damage a move does only apply once, and use the full damage you deal based on how many times you hit.

In the case of a move like Confusion, if either roll is high enough to confuse the target then the target is confused.
In the case of Mega Drain, the effect reads "After the target takes damage, the user gains Hit Points equal to half of the damage they dealt to the target.", so you simply heal for half of the damage dealt by the attack.

The damage of a Doublestrike move is only rolled once, not twice. The Effect is only applied once. So you heal once for the damage that the full attack rolled, because the damage is not rolled separately for each strike.
You only roll twice to see if you hit (or applied effect), so essentially Double Down gives you an increased ability to apply effects to moves and increases their damage a little if you are lucky.

You never need to know how much damage an individual strike of a doublestrike move would have done.
Edited by Jacquerel, Jul 22 2015, 06:30 AM.
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Doxy
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The PTU Guy
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Domo
Jul 21 2015, 11:58 PM
The only weird part is the way Double Strike interacts with crit and STAB at the same time. This is a question that I don't really feel comfortable giving an answer on, so you may want to direct it at the general questions thread so a dev can look at it. At any rate, you shouldn't be rolling damage twice, you should be rolling the full damage pool once - I understand the confusion with the keyword, but your examples don't even make sense. Let's look at an easy case.

If both attacks hit with your Double Strike Mega Drain with STAB:

You should roll ([DB x 2] + STAB), in this case a total DB of 10, plus your Special Attack. That's it, that is all that you roll. Then you compare enemy Special Defense and typing, then your GM should tell you either how much it dealt so you can calculate healing or just tell you how much you heal. Mega Drain heals based off total damage dealt and triggers at the end of calculation, so you get healed by half the inflicted damage once. The Double Down tech prevents you from trying to heal half inflicted damage twice (or, you know, total inflicted damage), but doesn't force you to weirdly calculate it the way you are trying to.

If Double Strike is legitimately an issue in your game, you can go for a bandaid houserule:

Double Strike: Whenever a Move with the Double Strike keyword is used, make two Attack Rolls. If only one hits, use the listed Damage Base. If both hit, double the listed Damage Base. For each critical hit rolled, add an additional ten damage to the final damage roll.

This removes the stickiest and most confusing part of the keyword and replaces it with the average damage you'd be getting out of most Double Strike Moves anyway (though it is a slight boost in damage for any Moves DB3 and under, like standard Twinneedle).
I endorse this post.

Don't think of Double Strike as really being two different attacks. It's more like a single attack that lets you make a bonus roll to determine if you get bonus damage.
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Giant2005
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Jacquerel
Jul 22 2015, 06:28 AM
You are seriously overthinking it.

Quote:
 
The Move gains the Double Strike keyword. Effects and Effect-Ranges may be triggered only once (but either roll may trigger the effect).
You roll twice to hit and determine the damage. You roll once to determine the attack's damage, after you have rolled to hit.
Effects that require a certain range (like crits) benefit from an increased chance to apply as you are rolling twice. Effects which always apply, only apply once. Effects based on the damage a move does only apply once, and use the full damage you deal based on how many times you hit.

In the case of a move like Confusion, if either roll is high enough to confuse the target then the target is confused.
In the case of Mega Drain, the effect reads "After the target takes damage, the user gains Hit Points equal to half of the damage they dealt to the target.", so you simply heal for half of the damage dealt by the attack.

The damage of a Doublestrike move is only rolled once, not twice. The Effect is only applied once. So you heal once for the damage that the full attack rolled, because the damage is not rolled separately for each strike.
You only roll twice to see if you hit (or applied effect), so essentially Double Down gives you an increased ability to apply effects to moves and increases their damage a little if you are lucky.

You never need to know how much damage an individual strike of a doublestrike move would have done.
That makes sense, so essentially it was wirrten in a really confusing way in an attempt to prevent people from trying to rules lawyer the effect into being twice as strong as intended.
The thing is, I'm not really sure what that line was even trying to prevent... That line seems like it is adding more confusion to the mechanic than what it is removing. I mean, it is far more likely for someone like me to read that line and interpret it as having "HP Absorb" or "Cannot Miss" (And other effects of that nature) to apply to only one of the attacks; than it is for someone to try and get double the listed damage's worth of HP Absorb by not having that line.
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Jacquerel
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I don't think it was written in a confusing way to prevent people from rules lawyering it.
It is slightly confusing, but not very confusing, you merely misread it. There was no other intention than just explaining how the feature works.

The line is to prevent people from saying "It's a double strike now, so I should heal twice rather than once".
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Giant2005
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Jacquerel
Jul 22 2015, 08:02 AM
It is slightly confusing, but not very confusing, you merely misread it.
But that isn't the case at all.
It states that the move has two attacks but only one of the attacks may trigger a move's effect.
I didn't misread the ability, I read it exactly how it is written - the effect varies depending on how much damage was inflicted, it applies only to one of the attacks, and the damage that is being rolled by the double-strike is for both attacks. Ergo, in order to find out how many HP you absorb, you have to figure out how much damage one of the attacks would do without the other.
Any logical mind would come to the same conclusion as I did - you essentially have to evade the writing in order to come up with a different conclusion.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely prefer your interpretation - I'm grateful that you mentioned it; and I'll be using it if my GM allows it, but that isn't the default interpretation one would get from reading those statements.
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Jacquerel
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I'm willing to give people a lot of slack for misunderstanding things, there is a lot to take in in a tabletop system. But when you make a mistake just own it, there's nothing to be ashamed of, don't try and twist it into something other than you just being mistaken in your interpretation of what is written.

It never mentions "multiple attacks" though, if that is what you read then you rewrote it before reading it.
Here is the exact text:
Quote:
 
Effects and Effect-Ranges may be triggered only once (but either roll may trigger the effect).

My explanation is the intended meaning, and also what is literally written there:

Effects and Effect Ranges may only be triggered once, and for an effect which triggers from a roll, only one roll may trigger the effect.
Here is the text for Giga Drain:
Quote:
 
After the target takes damage, the user gains Hit Points equal to half of the damage they dealt to the target.

Effects such as Giga Drain are not dependent on a roll, so which hit roll you use for them makes absolutely no difference to its final effect. Even using ""logic"" with my """mind""" doesn't change this.

Double strike moves only perform a single instance of damage, and the damage changes based on how many successful rolls you have made. Which roll you apply the effect on is irrelevant because the effect takes place after damage has been dealt, so you will already have calculated the damage from Double Strike.
It does not perform two separate instances of damage, and nowhere in the book is it implied otherwise.

The "logical" chain of events if you read what is written is as follows:


  • Declare your attack.
  • Roll to hit twice.
  • Determine the damage base based on how many successful hit rolls you have made, and how many of these were critical hits.
  • Add any other damage base modifiers.
  • Apply the effect.

At no point in this sequence would you ever need to calculate the damage of a single hit of double strike, as giga drain explicitly tells you to apply its effect only after all damage has been calculated.
The Double Down feature then explicitly lays down that you still only apply this effect once, because otherwise people will try and get away with using moves with variable damage based on an effect such as Seismic Toss in ways they are not intended to be used.
Edited by Jacquerel, Jul 22 2015, 08:40 AM.
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Giant2005
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Jacquerel
Jul 22 2015, 08:31 AM
I'm willing to give people a lot of slack for misunderstanding things, there is a lot to take in in a tabletop system. But when you make a mistake just own it, there's nothing to be ashamed of, don't try and twist it into something other than you just being mistaken in your interpretation of what is written.
The quoted passage is as far as I could get into your post before searching for the forum's ignore feature (Which doesn't seem to exist).
I'm sure there may be some genuine potential for interesting information in the rest of the passage but your opening line was so powerfully condescending that I had to focus the entirety of my mind to restraining myself from responding with an outburst of equal insult. I simply didn't have enough willpower left after taxing myself on that level, to read the rest of your post.
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