Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Pokemon Tabletop. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 4
New Player Build Advice!; New player trying to make a water Type Ace
Topic Started: Jun 10 2015, 12:54 AM (4,210 Views)
Major
Pokémon Trainer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Feralligator
Jul 13 2015, 06:35 PM
I really appreciate the way you present that information, Major, although if you did Normal you would see that they get Hyper Beam with DB 15, and don't forget that pretty much everyone is going to take the feature that gives you STAB with your moves. And also there's the fact that many of the Elementalists get other features that add additional bonuses and effects to their moves, while I get none. Hydro Jet, which allows me to turn my moves into a line 4 for ranged moves is useless when I try to use Surf, as it's a line 6 attack. And since I picked Sp. Attack over Attack, the melee, pass, "pinball" style application for melee moves just doesn't work. Yes, I do AWESOME in group fights, as I can keep using my strongest moves repeatedly and hit for AOE damage, just as you said. The problem is that we're actually at rather low levels right now, so the extra damage is pretty crippling. At higher levels it wouldn't matter as much, just as you said. But the way the game goes we don't do many group battles except against weak groups of pokemon.

Every time I try to fight against another trainer is when I feel the pain, I'm just trying to figure out a way to get past that, since I really wanted to play a water-type character and this is my first time playing this game, so I took the classes recommended to me, which seemed awesome when I started but aren't looking that great now.

(Well, Type Ace is pretty fun, and like I said I have no problems on the pokemon end of things. If our game wasn't so trainer-combat focused I'd be rocking!)
If you have master moves you should be higher enough that the tiny amount doesn't matter. Hyper Beam would also be the only move that is any real damage over other moves and unless you get one shot by it, you should come out on top since two DB 9s should beat a hyper beam.

As for STAB...that's not just other elementalist? You do know you can take that as well. I didn't mention type expertise because that is something available to everyone if they wish for it. Especially since if you aren't thrilled with most your utility feats that would actually give you MORE feats to afford to spend on other stuff.

Also, Surf isn't your only move...The Line 4 can still apply to others. Given, surf+signature is solid and you probably won't NEED other moves often, but suppressed, disabled, etc mixed with that is an option. Hell line 4 whirlpool is disgusting <.<

And even weak pokemon can be brutal if they constantly get attacks off. So yes you excel at hordes. Right now the issue is you are claiming that Maelstorm is underpowered and your moves are "far weaker" to the point that you get "one or two shot" but take a long time to take other people out as your examples. I'm pointing out that the numbers aren't that huge a gap and clearly its something else.

The power issue is NOT in Maelstorm vs Fire Bringer (using that as an example because you specifically mentioned it). Maelstorm is a solid class. Yes, its SLIGHTLY (Barely) weaker than SOME (not all) of the elementalist. But the trade-off is if you EVER fight more than 1 one person (IE: trainer+pokemon=2) you will be doing more damage per round AND be able to do it longer. Honestly, I'd rather be a Water Elementalist than a Fire in terms of power. For a TINY decrease in damage you get better range, the ability to do way more damage if there is more than one (and again trainer+pokemon=2). Meanwhile fire is going "Hmm...recoil and limited frequency..." Do note, its 1/3 recoil too. That's not something to shrug at.

However, the big issue seems to be your game...given you keep flipflopping so not sure. First you claimed mostly 1v1 then rarely 1v1 and hordes, then group battles are only hordes and its mostly 1v1 <.<

Point is looking SOLELY at the elementalist side (since we don't know anyone else's build) Maelstorm should be stronger. Because most the time it shouldn't just be 1v1 it should at least be 2v2 just based on Pokemon. And if it is EVER more than 1v1 you win in damage. And the times it isn't you BARELY lose. Not enough to throw a fight with such a huge gap.

My suspicion is that its other classes and builds or stat point allotment or something that is the issue. If you posted your build others might be able to help. Because this giant gap shouldn't be there. Maelstrom isn't the problem.

If you'd complained "Maelstrom utility is terrible" I'd be inclined to agree. Swim and gilled kinda require a water campaign and your GM to make them useful. Oceanic Feeling is just a pseduo 'get both abilities
and kinda "Ehhhh".

On a side note, you can always shot yourself with water moves (or have allies shoot you) for free +SpAtk stages. Given, its usually not worth it compared to attacking, but if you got AoE's (IE: pokemon with surf) you can have them hit you AND enemies for stat boosts. If I recall only the redirect move portion of storm drain is scene. I think the immunity/stat boost is passive. Like 90% sure.

Edit: Point is you've acknowledged your new and I think the issue comes with that. I think other players might be optimized better. But its NOT your class...
Edited by Major, Jul 13 2015, 07:14 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Feralligator
Member Avatar
Pokémon Trainer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Well, thank you for pointing that out.

"However, the big issue seems to be your game...given you keep flipflopping so not sure. First you claimed mostly 1v1 then rarely 1v1 and hordes, then group battles are only hordes and its mostly 1v1 <.< "

That does sound confusing, lol! Sorry about that. To clarify, most of our regular pokemon battles are hordes. When we meet enemy pokemon, they usually come in big groups. This is probably because our group is rather large (6 players). It's the same thing for bosses, they usually bring lots of reinforcements. But when it comes to fighting other trainers, I guess I wasn't clear enough. By 1v1 battles I meant me vs the enemy trainer, but our pokemon are usually allowed as well. I usually do ok in these battles due to good pokemon, but my character gets beat up a lot. The exceptions have been "duels" where only trainers fight, and that's where I really get my butt handed to me. Those happen pretty regularly, since the GM likes to emphasize trainer combat. He usually has people using guns, swords, or gives them fighting or psychic classes for combat, those seem to be his favorite. That and Berserker.

I totally see what you're saying about pure statistics meaning that when fighting 2 or more enemies I do more damage, that's definitely true. The problem is that most of the important battles (other than straight up boss battles) are fought in situations where I can't use my AOE abilities effectively.

That said, I tend not to be a power-gamer, so once in a while something like this happens where I want to play something because it sounds like it'll be fun and it turns out not to be the best choice. Are there any people here willing to offer build advice on making the best use of the Maelstrom/Water Type Ace classes, with an emphasis on improving my Trainer combat?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Major
Pokémon Trainer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Well, let's see your build first before we can help.

However, yes a 1v1 Maelstorm in ONLY trainer vs trainer no Pokemon, no nothing isn't going to excel. ESPECIALLY if you have Type Ace.

For example, I play a character, Claire who is all combat classes. I don't have Pokemon support classes. In Pokemon battles, she's not that great. But she crushes in combat. Now, you are split. That makes you a balanced character. Meaning Boss fights, pokemon battles Trainer+Mon vs Trainer+Mon you have an ideal set-up because you got a bit of both.

However, since you have Type Ace, that means it isn't really a surprise that you might get beat up in a fight where some of your feats are totally useless cause no pokemon. But the system really isn't build with the expectation of "no Pokemon" (Thus the name Pokemon :P )

So...being Maelstorm/Water Type Ace we could probably help you be good at 2v2s, horde fights, boss+minions, etc etc. But if you want to be the best in 1v1 no Pokemon fights...well...you got an entire class that's useless in those cases. I'm NOT saying drop it by the way. I'm just pointing out that if somebody spends ALL feats/edges on trainer combat and you spend half...who wins trainer combat? Just like if they spend NO feats on Pokemon support you should beat them in a Pokemon battle (in theory)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Giant2005
Pokémon Trainer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Feralligator
Jul 13 2015, 08:26 PM
Are there any people here willing to offer build advice on making the best use of the Maelstrom/Water Type Ace classes, with an emphasis on improving my Trainer combat?
There isn't much I can add on the subject that I haven't already added, but I can reinforce the options I have already stated with a bit more specifics.
Neglecting your defensive stats doesn't necessarily mean you have to be weak defensively - there are plenty of equipment options and class feats which will go a long way in helping you survive long enough to down your enemy, even if you have been built as a glass cannon.
I don't know how many class slots you have left available, but between the Fortress's Stalwart Bastion, Shield Bearer and a suit of heavy armor, you can get yourself 33 DR (With the innate 5 Defenses every trainer gets, that is 38 points of damage mitigated from every attack). If you can also take Berserker, you can get another 5 from Power of Rage. Rely on that DR and focus your stat points into Attack and HP. Get your hands on a Shell Bell - between that and Aqua Ring, you will be getting two ticks of health each turn - as long as your HP is high enough to make those two ticks worthwhile, those two ticks combined with the aforementioned DR will be plenty enough to keep your character healthy long enough to wipe out your enemy.
Being squishy is entirely optional - even to those that don't put any points into Defense or Special Defense.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Major
Pokémon Trainer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
to be fair that is a class slot, 3 feats, and two items. regardless heavy armor is a nice choice if he can get it. Shields are great even if not readied since doesn't need hands.

also worth noting that shell bell is a tick of temp HP and at such won't actually heal or stack with itself, but it is still a pseudo Dr
Edited by Major, Jul 13 2015, 09:48 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jacquerel
Member Avatar
Pokémon Trainer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Honestly I think this really is a GM problem. The only kind of one-on-one duel the system was designed to anticipate was... one's where pokemon participate and not trainers. Not the other way around. "Dueling" where one person fights one other person with no interference wasn't really a balance expectation at all, and the expectation is for the vast majority of battles to have multiple targets fighting each other simultaneously.
If this is meant to be a "dark and gritty" game then play dirty. If you're bad at dueling people without help but your GM keeps forcing you to for some reason (how does that even work, when you are essentially six parties travelling together?), find a way to make sure that situation isn't happening. You do have a bunch of loyal buddies stuck to your belt, after all :P
Edited by Jacquerel, Jul 14 2015, 01:15 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
kingsin
Member Avatar
the sinner of poffins
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
also if you really want to be better at if and willing to lose one of your class you could go one of these two to support.
Spoiler: click to toggle
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Feralligator
Member Avatar
Pokémon Trainer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Yeah, Jacquerel has a point. The GM likes to emphasize the fact that the villains we face are brutal, and he often has us fight berserkers or martial artists (among other classes) who can go toe-to-toe with our pokemon and beat them down. Combine that with the fact that trainers are usually quite a ways behind their pokemon in this system, and combat tends to be very deadly.

But as to how that works it's because the party is often split up, due to various reasons. I know, "never split the party," lol! But believe me, I don't encourage it!

But yes, I only have two classes ATM, so I should be able to get more as we go on. I like the ones Kingsin presented, I may give those a try...
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Major
Pokémon Trainer
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
I think the bigger question is when "super badass" people show up and want to fight why are you playing fair and not going "Nope, not 1v1ing you" and release your pokemon then tag team these 1v1 duels. Also is your sheet online? If you share it we can help better vs giving broad "X classes are usually good"
Edited by Major, Jul 14 2015, 04:41 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
« Previous Topic · Pokemon: Tabletop United · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 4

Pokéball created by Sarah & Delirium of the ZNR