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New Player Build Advice!; New player trying to make a water Type Ace
Topic Started: Jun 10 2015, 12:54 AM (4,212 Views)
Feralligator
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Pokémon Trainer
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Surf isn't, but realistically it's going to be near impossible to actually be able to keep within a range where I can attack but they can't...although I'll at least give that a try. That said, the GM and Co-GM looked over the class and they agreed that it was pretty under-powered compared to the others. So there might be some house rule fixes in the future.

But yes, he likes to use weapon users and other elementalists against us a lot, so trainer vs trainer combat is very hard.

That said, my pokemon are awesome! Water really is one of the most versatile types with all the dual-typed water pokemon available, so I haven't run into troubles there. My issue is that we have two other elementalists in our party, and they can both at least take a hit and deal out some pretty decent damage in return, whereas my character simply can't do enough damage to make it worthwhile to even try to fight.

Theoretically I should be pretty strong after using Rain Dance and Aqua Ring to boost my damage and survivability, but in practice I can't last more than two turns against even enemies at my level. So I loose half my health in the first turn activating Aqua Ring (and let's face it, for trainers who don't focus on defenses, a tick of health gained back isn't enough to be all that helpful...), then I go down the next round trying to use Rain Dance. IF by some lucky low damage rolls by my enemy I manage to survive those two rounds, I'm still left with less than 25% health facing a full-health enemy that I have no hope of 1-shotting, so I'm pretty much screwed.

Maybe I'm just playing the character wrong....one of the other players put it this way:

"Water moves suck, they just do. Almost none can inflict any kind of status condition and most or very weak. You complain that Maelstrom gives you weak moves, it's that water has no strong moves to give. The strongest 5 water moves are Hydro Cannon at DB 15, Water Spout at DB 15, Origin Pulse at DB 12, Hydro Pump at DB 11, and Crabhammer at DB 10.
Hydro Cannon is the equivalent of Blast Burn and Frenzy Plant but Druids and Fire Bringers don't get that move so it wouldn't make sense for only Maelstroms to get it.
Origin Pulse is a move exclusive to Kyogre, enough said.
This leaves Water Spout, Hydro Pump, and Crabhammer at DB 15,11, and 10 respectively. I'd have NO problem with you being able to choose two of them if you have one of the two skills for Maelstrom at master rank, as sort of a rank 4 for Call the Current.
Other than that there's no fixing Maelstrom. Water moves just suck. The main boost from water types is that they learn moves from other types to cover their weaknesses, like Ice to cover Grass and Dragon, which resists Water. Also the fact that most water types are balanced between physical and special contributes to this fact.
Don't blame the makers of the system for giving you weaker moves, blame yourself for not A: looking into how often water will be seen in this game, and B: what strength the moves you learn are and what kind of bonuses your class offers.
Yes most elementalists get moves that go up to DB 11-12, but water simply doesn't have that, with the three exceptions above. Normal type elementalists don't get too powerful moves, the main boost from them is what they can do: Never miss, reduce accuracy, burn/paralyze/freeze, change strength and type with the weather, and heal. Then there's hyper beam at DB 15 which is very powerful except for one thing: I give up my next turn after using it. All other moves are DB 5/10 in weather, 6, and 8."

What can I say to that??
Edited by Feralligator, Jul 12 2015, 11:20 PM.
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Giant2005
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I don't really understand where this "Water damage sucks" mentality is coming from. You have a spammable DB9 attack - DB9 is as good as spammable attacks get within the system without relying on set up events (Like a bunch of low damage attacks prior to building up a good DB). The only class that gets better, reliable, damage is the Berserker and they pay a price for their damage bonus.
The issue here seems to be two-fold: you have neglected your defense to the point where your offense is pointless and it sounds like your GM isn't balancing his scenes very well - the point of the Scene and Daily frequencies is that those moves aren't supposed to be spammed like it sounds like is happening. Your DM needs to add more encounters to a scene or make those encounters far sturdier to balance the game better.

As for solutions, there isn't a lot you can do about your GM's tendencies but you can fix up your defense somewhat. Get yourself some armor, chuck some points into your defensive stats and consider taking Fortress or Berserker for their abilities that bestow Damage Reduction. If none of the above is an option, get yourself a Honedge and turn it into a Wall - Honedge can intercept as a Free Action once they get to level 20 so it will be able to protect you from most single target attacks.
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Jacquerel
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Also are you really starting so close to opponents that you can't set up without being punched in the first turn? Even if you move away from them? How are encounters beginning with you already so far inside the range of the enemy?
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Feralligator
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First of all the "water damage sucks" quote was made by another player, not me. But when I look at it, yes, the Maelstrom has decent spammable attacks, but the other classes also have higher-damage attacks in addition to their more spammable ones. And these are the attacks that are wrecking me.

Yes, I do need better defense, but focusing on defense just makes my already poor offense even worse.

But just to give you guys a little more detail on the game itself, our GM is going for the whole "darker and gritter" approach to the storyline, so there's no League, very few real pokemon battles, and absolutely NO mercy on people with low damage. The whole idea is that there is a massive tournament that's more like real-life war games than a battle tournament. (We're supposed to fight large numbers of enemy "troops," both trainer and mon. We have to take and protect "territory" and trainers are ALWAYS fighting alongside their pokemon.) But behind all of this are villains that are killing/absorbing the powers of Legendary pokemon, and he's using Blessed and the Damned for the legendaries, so they're basically gods. Thus, the "real" bosses of the game are basically gods themselves.

Except for when we're just looking to catch pokemon, there are no 1v1 pokemon battles, there are pretty much just horde encounters, so when enemies show up they just ambush us randomly and they're usually close up. The same for when bosses show up, they usually arrive and then minions start to appear out of nowhere, or we are disabled because they have supernatural auras or other such typical cheap boss tactics, lol! Thanks to my fellow players I've been able to set up in these types of battles, but in the few battles where trainers challenge me I'm basically right in their face already so I have chance to set up before they start dumping their scene and daily moves on me ensuring a 1-2 hit KO. Like, for example, one of the players (playing a FIRE elementalist, of all things!) was able to 2-shot me while I barely took out half her health.

But yeah, I don't think the encounters are balanced very well, as he's even admitted that most enemies and even friendly NPCs are stronger than us to reinforce the "underdog" feel of our group. The problem with that is that so far the other players have, with a little bit of luck, been able to win every time, while I have nearly always gotten destroyed. While bad luck also plays a part here, it's due mostly to the fact that we're expected to have trainer combat abilities and mine just aren't up to par. No one else has a class that focuses on defense, they're all elementalists or Aura Guardians or Berserkers or that sort of thing. We're all pretty much splitting our classes between pokemon-focused classed and combat classes.

Again, no complaints about my pokemon, they're awesome so far. But I'm just beating my head against the wall trying to figure out how to make my character work.
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Flamewolf9
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As mealstrom do you have whirlpool by chance? That's a great way to buy yourself some time and range while they steadily take damage. Most of the other elementalist classes are focused around 1v1 combat which isn't the case for maelstrom. It's very area of effect focused so while you aren't doing as much damage to any one target, your total damage output could easily outstrip everyone else's simply by hitting multiple targets, which shouldn't be a problem in PTU.
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Feralligator
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Yes, I do have Whirlpool, and it's cool. But it's only 1 target and even though it slows another trainer I have yet to use it where it's allowed me to avoid getting hit by them.

And yeah, the problem is that there is literally no use for AOE combat outside of fighting large groups of minions, I'm getting wrecked in regular battles, not group fights.
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kingsin
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what you could do in that, is go roughneck for it first ability will allow you to greatly hamper your opponents by making them flinch or lower their stats the best part is you can also slow done some opponents to a score of 0 for a round meaning you make them miss a turn to allow you a set up add that with a flinch attack and you can get some good power going.
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Major
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Ok, ignoring the games and issues there, I keep hearing all these claims about "water weak" and "my DB vs their DB" and they do more damage...

So here is facts:

First off Maelstrom so we can see what dealing with...
Rank 1 (4-6)
DB 4 Aqua Jet
DB 6 Water Pulse

Rank 2 (4-8)
DB 8 Bubble Beam
DB 8 Waterfall
DB 4 Whirlpool

Rank 3: (9)
DB 9 Aqua Tail
DB 9 Surf
--------

Bug Elementalist
Rank 1: (DB 3-5)
DB 3 Fell needle
DB 4 (raises with set-up, but we're talking base) Fury Cutter
DB 5 Struggle Bug

Rank 2: (4-9)
DB 9 Attack Order
DB 4 Infestation
DB 8 Signal Beam
DB 7 Steamroller

Rank 3: (9-12)
DB 9 Bug Buzz
DB 12 Mega Horn

------
Dark Elementalist
"Rank 1"
DB 6 Feint Attack
DB 6 Snarl

"Rank 2"
DB 7 Night Slash
DB 8 Dark Pulse

"Rank 3"
DB 9 Night Daze
DB 6 Punishment

--------
Dragon Elementalist
"Rank 1" (closer to rank 2 since Adept not novice)
DB 8 Dragon Claw
DB 6 Dragon Tail

"Rank 2" (closer to rank 3 since master rank)
DB 10 Dragon Rush
DB 12 Outrage

------
Electric
Rank 1
DB 5 Charge Beam
DB 6 Shock Wave
DB 6 Spark

Rank 2
DB 8 Thunder Punch
DB 9 Thunderbolt

Rank 3
DB 8 Discharge
DB 11 Thunder
DB 12 Volt Tackle

------
Fairy Elementalist
"Rank 1"
DB 4 Disarming Voice

"Rank 2"
DB 5 Draining Kiss
DB 8 Dazzling Gleam

"Rank 3"
DB 10 Moonblast

-------
Fire Elementalist (Especially important since brought up as "crushed you")
"Rank 1"
DB 4 Ember
DB 7 Flame Burst
DB 5 Flame Charge
DB 6 Flame Wheel

"Rank 2"
DB 9 Flamethrower
DB 4 Fire Spin
DB 8 Fire Punch

"Rank 3"
DB 8 Fiery Dance
DB 9 Blaze Kick
DB 12 Flare Blitz
DB 10 Heat Wave

(Most moves are BARELY stronger than you...Like an average 3 damage, except Flare Blitz average 9 damage which is still small and does recoil. So for recoil and 9 damage...he gets scene vs EoT? Also, does your GM realize Scene moves are also EoT and you can't do same scene move twice in a row? Not sure if that's an issue or not)

------
Flying Elementalist

Rank 1
DB 6 Aerial Ace
DB 6 Air Cutter
DB 4 Gust

Rank 2
DB 8 Air Slash
DB 9 Bounce

Rank 3:
DB 12 Brave Bird
DB 11 Hurricane
DB 14 Sky Attack
--------

Ghost Elementalist

"Rank 1"
DB 6 Shadow Punch
DB 4 Shadow Sneak

"Rank 2"
DB 7 Shadow Claw
DB 9 Phantom Force

-------
Grass Elementalist

Rank 1:
DB 4 Mega Drain
DB 6 Razor Leaf

Rank 2:
DB 9 Energy Ball
DB 8 Giga Drain
DB 6 Magical Leaf
DB 8 Seed Bomb

Rank 3:
DB 9 Petal Blizzard
DB 12 Petal Dance
DB 12 Power Whip
DB 12 Solar Beam

-------
Earth Elementalist
"Rank 1"
DB 6 Bulldoze
DB 6 Mud Shot

"Rank 2"
DB 8 Drill Run
DB 5+x (1d6) Magnitude
DB 7 Mud Bomb

"Rank 3"
DB 10 Earthquake
DB 9 Earth Power
DB 4 Sand Tomb

-----
Ice Elementalist
"rank 1"
DB 4 Ice Shard
DB 4 Powder Snow

"Rank 2"
DB 7 Freeze-Dry
DB 8 Ice Punch
DB 8 Icicle Crash
DB 9 Ice Beam

"Rank 3"
DB 6 Avalanche
DB 11 Blizzard
DB 6 Frost Breath
DB 3 Icicle Spear

====
(At this point I got bored...still got normal, poison, rock, steel...but that's all but four)

With the overall list I'm not seeing a huge issue. Yes, Water has like 2-3 DB's less than others, but that's an average of 3-9 damage. In exchange they got lots of EoT's meaning they can last for prolonged battles. Even in short battles they have range and AoE power. Line 6's that also let you move to those spots while attacking, Vortex to slow and trap and drain HP, pass moves, etc. Water Pulse also has a range of 8 which might not seem great, but you have to recall 4 is far more common and very little has over 8 range. With slows and lines to move around you should be able to move to those spots.

However, if you are at high levels and 3-9 damage is the difference between being "one or two shot" you and you take lots of turns something is up...3-9 damage is not a huge power difference at high levels. Water is the AoE king and long fight master. If "hordes" are attacking you, you should be the best. Losing 3-9 damage for ability to hit multiple people?
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Feralligator
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I really appreciate the way you present that information, Major, although if you did Normal you would see that they get Hyper Beam with DB 15, and don't forget that pretty much everyone is going to take the feature that gives you STAB with your moves. And also there's the fact that many of the Elementalists get other features that add additional bonuses and effects to their moves, while I get none. Hydro Jet, which allows me to turn my moves into a line 4 for ranged moves is useless when I try to use Surf, as it's a line 6 attack. And since I picked Sp. Attack over Attack, the melee, pass, "pinball" style application for melee moves just doesn't work. Yes, I do AWESOME in group fights, as I can keep using my strongest moves repeatedly and hit for AOE damage, just as you said. The problem is that we're actually at rather low levels right now, so the extra damage is pretty crippling. At higher levels it wouldn't matter as much, just as you said. But the way the game goes we don't do many group battles except against weak groups of pokemon.

Every time I try to fight against another trainer is when I feel the pain, I'm just trying to figure out a way to get past that, since I really wanted to play a water-type character and this is my first time playing this game, so I took the classes recommended to me, which seemed awesome when I started but aren't looking that great now.

(Well, Type Ace is pretty fun, and like I said I have no problems on the pokemon end of things. If our game wasn't so trainer-combat focused I'd be rocking!)
Edited by Feralligator, Jul 13 2015, 06:39 PM.
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Giant2005
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Feral, I really believe that your fellow players are using some kind of advantage that you are simply not aware of, like they are wearing armor or something and you are not. Also keep in mind that a lot of Pokemon Held Items can be used by Trainers - if others are using a Stat or Type Booster and you aren't, it could account for a lot of the difference you are seeing.
The other concern and this one may feel a bit of an insult to your intelligence but believe me when I say I don't intend it to be so (I just want to ensure that all of the bases are covered), but have you been adding in your stat bonuses from class feats and the trainer bonuses you can choose in lieu of other free perks at levels 5, 10, 20, 30 and 40?
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