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| Building a Dual-wielder; With Swords that is | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 18 2014, 02:28 PM (1,187 Views) | |
| Major | Dec 18 2014, 02:28 PM Post #1 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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I'm just curious about something as a thought exercise. How would somebody go about building a dual-wielder in PTU? The option exists for WS who get a dual-wield feat, but there is very little support and the massive penalties make me wonder the point. Is there any viable way to build one that I'm missing? To explain at Expert Combat your best is a base AC 3, DB 5 W/ a one-handed weapon you get a +1 Damage base (I assume this doesn't stack for +2 with two weapons) W/ Weapon of choice you get another +1 Damage base So now you have a base AC 3, DB 7 with a one-handed weapon. Fairly subpar, but whatever. So then you spend extra feats on WS to be able to get the dual-wield feat. Here is where things get a bit...odd. At this point you've invested skills, bought two weapons, spent quite a few feats, and you're reward is -2DB, -3 accuracy, and a swift-action economy tax. This means each combat you have to blow your swift action to get an AC 6, DB 5, double-strike. (In addition to the three feats: WS +2 ranks of Weapon Training). Even worse most the first rank of WS you won't be able to use while using both swords since most also cost swift actions. Now, are there any combos that people can find to make a dual-wielder actually useful? I realize sometimes mixing classes and combos can make something that seems subpar pretty great. So I present the challenge to people here. Make a good dual-wielder. As for level? I'm fairly open, sooner better obviously, but at same time I'll take any level. But do try and think how would the same class compare against someone of equal level. (Sure a level 50 dual-wielder will be great, but how much weaker is he than another level 50 combat class?) |
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| First Exile | Dec 18 2014, 03:50 PM Post #2 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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In depth mechanic and rule analyzing? I'm in! Fighting with two weapons isn't as bad as it seems. Having two accuracy rolls is a huge thing, arguably even better than the True Strike maneuver (which costs AP, by the way) due to the wide arrays of effects it can bring. Here are, laid out, the advantages of dual-wielding on its own: 1) You are more likely to hit overall: Not counting evasion, you will miss only 6.25% of the time compared to the usual 10%. 2) You deal more damage overall: You perform a DB 5 attack 37.5% of the time, and perform a DB 10 attack the remaining 56.25%. This averages out to more than a constant 90% chance for a DB 7 attack. 3) Being disarmed only removes one weapon at a time, allowing you to keep fighting even when people get past your WS boosted disarm defence. 4) You're not forced to use a double attack; you can opt out of using Twin-Weapon Fighting in any round to do a normal AC 3 and DB 7 attack and still get to use your Swift action. Here are some tips and tricks for effective use of dual-wielding: 1) You can roll for Combat Maneuvers (trip, disarm etc.) twice, succeeding more often. This means that you become a master of dueling or wrestling (dual wield knuckle weapons, my friend). 1b) Combine the above with Maneuver Training, Called Shot and Offensive Maneuver (all from the Soldier class) for a completely Combat Maneuver-based character. 2) You can activate the effects of King's Rock (flinch on 19-20), Razor Fang (injury on 19-20) and similar items twice as often, so look for these items. 2b) As above, you also critical hit twice as often (at a DB -2 penalty), making any bonuses that activate on-crit twice as useful. 2c) The increased AC does not affect your rate of activating the above items or even landing crits (since they happen at flat dice rolls), meaning that building around those is actually a pretty good idea. 3) Merciless Steel (from Weapons Specialist) is effectively a +4 DB Free Action at a 2 AP cost, since you decide whether to activate it when you hit (there's no guessing involved as to whether or not you'll make a DB 5 or DB 10 attack). Apart from the above tips, a dual-wielder is still a melee character and as such combines well with the Roughneck, Rider and updated Hunter among others. And all that, at the cost of your swift action! Personally though, I'd play a dual-wielding character simply because the concept behind one is pretty neat, rather than it being strong build or anything. And as in all cases, talking to your DM/GM can do wonders in creating custom content or overall altering the game to suit your tastes or playstyle. Edited by First Exile, Dec 18 2014, 07:24 PM.
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| Major | Dec 18 2014, 05:11 PM Post #3 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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Merciless Steel would only be a +2DB since its just one attack and I'm 90% sure it would come after doubling like technician, stab, etc. The increased chance to hit seems nice, but an AC of 6 is brutal. At max evasion it's a DC 15. As for combat maneuvers it's (at moment till 1.05) another -3 for what is basically an AC 9 preevasion... I think your math fails to account for evasion at all. As for soldier stuff aren't those swift actions so you can't double strike. (on phone so away from book at moment) Items is a fair point, but it's hoping solely for 19-20. Finally most effects reference moves which struggle is not so very few effects that a trainer can get will trigger on it. Plus most battle effects will work better on the moves that that class that gives the abilities probably gives. Sure, this double strike seems nice, but compare to other options with lower AC and ability to get STAB and technician. |
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| First Exile | Dec 18 2014, 07:33 PM Post #4 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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Actually, in the case of a maximum evasion target (10 vs. ALL), your odds to miss with dual wielding are still 56.25% compared to a single weapon's 60%. I have to be fair, this does result in a much lower chance to hit both accuracy rolls (thus reducing the average damage below that of a single weapon) but on the flipside, doesn't that only make it so that dual-wielding is better at early levels, as you were hoping for? (Small side-note, one Roughneck feature gets you an ability that reduces the enemy's speed, allowing for more accurate hits and partially alleviating this problem) The point I'm making is that with two rolls and only a 3 AC difference, you will near-consantly have a higher chance to hit at all compared to a single weapon. This makes up for combat maneuvers since a single weapon would still get the same accuracy penalty, thus still getting you a higher hit chance with two weapons. With the flat number targets (19 and 20) you will usually have nearly double the chance of rolling said number compared to a normal single-weapon attack. 19% of rolling a 19/20 at all compared to a single weapon with 10%. That's nearly once every five attacks. That number suddenly seems far more reasonable! You're partially right on Soldier; Maneuver Training is a swift action, though Called Shot and Offensive Maneuver are both free actions (one allowing you to reduce a combat stage instead of dealing damage at the cost of decreased accuracy, and the other allowing you deal damage with combat maneuvers). In my opinion, these two still work to improve on this character's toolkit without requiring access to moves. I think we're running on different tracks; we're starting to compare dual-wielding to other playstyles (STAB? That's Elementalist territory right there, if it's even possible) instead of making a working dual-wield build in the first place. That's what I'm trying to do; give you advice and tell you which things can synergize with the advantages that feature brings so you can build your own character. In the end, though, my final advice remains the same; contact your GM. If you're having trouble with this type of character, talk to the GM and try to come to a conclusion that will help you play a dual-wielding character-- or anything else, really. You can always bend the rules if you both agree, make your own bit of homebrew. If you're thinking about a fantasy campaign or anything, even magical items could alleviate your problems (like a pair of enchanted blades that give you an extra swift action if you use them for two-weapon fighting, for example). Hell, your DM could even make a quest out of it to gather the two. I'd worry less about getting the perfect character and more about getting a character that's enjoyable to play and functions decently. The sky's the limit, here. Edited by First Exile, Dec 18 2014, 07:39 PM.
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| Major | Dec 18 2014, 07:59 PM Post #5 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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Well for making a character you can always hope a gm is nice, but RAW is always safest vs hoping for a house rule. as for the Elementalist territory my point was made at the end of the post that making wonder who is decent is nice, but they should be able to hold their own with other party members. Simply put most of these things a martial artist could do better. I was asking if there was any way to make one that was actually good and able to stand up with others. Sure I could ask the GM to give me a bunch of bonuses and swift actions, but at that point it might just be better to roll another class and fluff my attacks as dual wielding. things like technician, double kick, and various others. I know that if I like the idea most of the GM's I play with would work with it. We did the same thing with giving a buff to the weapon specialist class when it felt needed. but that doesn't mean that the ideal build should be at your GM for house rules. |
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| Major | Dec 18 2014, 08:01 PM Post #6 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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this doesn't even mention the little support. I will agree dual wielding is versatile you can use a one handed weapon, or a double strike, or hold the one handed weapon with two hands if you drop one of your weapons. However in terms of weapon training and building around it you're pretty much limited to one thing. More often than not going two handed or sword and shield will work out better. things like deadly strike, might of the valiant, protect, and various other things seem to benefit from a sword and shield or two handed. it kind of feels like dual wielding was tacked on and not actually something the system wanted but felt it had to add |
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| Kairose | Dec 18 2014, 08:02 PM Post #7 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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With a normal attack, you have a 90% chance to hit AC3, minus 5% per point of evasion the opponent has, minimum of 45% at 9 evasion (assuming external buffs). With Twin Weapon Fighting, your AC3/DB7 Struggle effectively becomes AC6/DB5 Double Strike, which means that it has a higher chance to hit at all - 93.75% at 0 evasion, and 51% at 9 evasion. It does do less damage most of the time, but there is also a rather large chance of hitting twice, and getting DB10: This chance is 56.25% at 0 evasion, and 9% at 9 evasion. These numbers tell you that Twin Weapon Fighting gives you an accuracy bonus that is roughly equivalent to +1 accuracy, depending on the opponent's evasion, but doesn't really tell us much about damage. Using the set damage chart to reduce variance, the damage for each damage base is as follows, before stats: DB7 (Normal Struggle Attack): 17 DB5 (1 hit with TWF): 13 DB10 (2 hits with TWF): 24 Note that stats and type affect all 3 possibilities the same way, so they're irrelevant to this calculation. In addition to the math above, the attacks each have different crit rates. A normal attack has a 5% chance of adding 17 more damage, while TWF has a 9.75% chance of adding 13 damage, or 0.25% chance of adding 24 damage. After doing the math, it turns out that this doesn't actually have a very large effect on damage: at 0 evasion, a normal attack averages 16.15 damage after accounting for miss and crit chances, while TWF averages 19.67 damage: only increasing it by 3.52, less than most boosts. And as evasion increases, that number just goes down, making TWF actually LESS effective against opponents with 7 or more evasion (at 7 evasion, averages drop to 10.2 for a normal attack and 10.08 for TWF) I came into this thinking that the effective accuracy increase actually made TWF worth it, but unfortunately, that is not the case. The only real advantage it gives is the improved chance of activating on-roll effects, which Struggle usually won't have. In fact, I don't even think it's possible without use of another class. Edit: Lots of posts while I was doing all the math for this. Sorry if what I said was already covered. Edited by Kairose, Dec 18 2014, 08:03 PM.
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| Major | Dec 18 2014, 08:06 PM Post #8 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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another thing to note is that even if it is a minor increase which as you noted is debatable it still is a constant swift action tax. And it really doesn't give enough benefits to be worth and action economy tax, a damaged tax, and an acccuracy tax all at once. it is flat out inferior to moves. and requires weapon training investment as well that could be better spent. Edit: so looking at the math with a very tiny boost, do you feel it is worth a constant swift action being wasted? Edit2: also worth noting is that we are comparing the numbers of one handed verse dual-wielding and it's tiny. now what happens when you add in one handed with a shield? Or two handed ? Edited by Major, Dec 18 2014, 08:12 PM.
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| The Black Glove | Dec 18 2014, 08:24 PM Post #9 |
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A Man Of Heart
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This is correct. The way doublestrike works means you would apply it once as a single attack. And yes, sadly, Struggle does not qualify for effects like Technician, Skill Link or STAB, but perhaps it's better that way. Unfortunately, this is correct. Well, sort of. The DC would actually be 12, actually, bar other effects such as Double Team or Illuminate, but that's still very high, and doesn't come with the advantages that a similarly high AC attack, Focus Blast (AC 7) brings (Higher Damage Base, Range, Smite, Potentially STAB/Aura Storm), and for less investment in a turn (Standard as opposed to Standard+Swift). I consider this separate from the discussion about Dual Wielding, but you are correct. I'd go into detail, but then we'd get off-track, wouldn't we? Called Shot and Offensive Maneuver are Free Actions, though Maneuver Training is a Swift. For clarification in further discussion. Perhaps, but +1 Flinch or Crit Rate can make a big difference, which is why those items exist in the first place. It is worth noting that none of these abilities exist on Weapon Specialist. Just thought I would point that out.
As a whole, this argument is based less on Dual-Wielding (though you did bring up specific points) and more on Struggle Attacks as a whole. I agree with most points in your argument, though I believe the intention was for Struggle Attacks to purposefully be weaker than moves, since Pokemon are supposed to be stronger than your average person? I do think there's a point at which they are needlessly penalized, like the -3 penalty to combat maneuvers, or Called Shot. Just Called Shot. It's also worth noting that the devs are intending to tackle this issue in the next update (I forget where this was said, but I remember them targeting WS specifically). |
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| Kairose | Dec 18 2014, 08:33 PM Post #10 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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At best, you get 3 and a half points extra damage on average, and at worst you lose slightly less than a full point of damage on average. Certainly not worth giving up your Swift action every round, especially late game when everything has high evasion. One handed with a shield is going to have the same damage as a normal attack for dual-wielding, since it was going off of the assumption that the two weapons don't stack with each other's DB increase, but with added evasion. Two-Handed weapons get +2 DB instead of +1, so it's normal attacks are DB8 (19 damage), but also increases the AC by 1. This means it's average is 17.1 at 0 evasion, which is still worse than TWF was, but becomes better than TWF at 6 evasion (2-handed is 11.4, while TWF is 11.3). And this is just comparing the normal attacks of the other options. Might of the Valiant, the 2-handed equivalent to Twin Weapon Fighting, is Static, so it doesn't require ANY action, AND it grants you a minimum of +3 damage to struggle attacks, usually +5 or +6, depending on your Body and Athletics, so it's clearly better than Twin Weapon Fighting. The shield talents don't affect your damage at all, though Harrier's accuracy bonus might make your allies deal more damage, but can't calculate that without knowing their damage outputs. Conclusion: Twin Weapon Fighting is overcosted and overly penalized. The same WS option can just use regular Struggle attacks for negligible difference WITHOUT using their Swift action, and Two-Handed WS gets better bonuses without any cost beyond the feat investment. |
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