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[PTU Blog] Polka and Poaching; a look at Dancer and Hunter revisions
Topic Started: Nov 10 2014, 06:21 PM (5,944 Views)
Estradus
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zoofman
Nov 13 2014, 10:40 AM
Estradus
Nov 13 2014, 09:04 AM
I feel like the nerf to combat stages was a bit drastic- In my own experience so far, a pokemon's stats have felt far underpowered compared to the potential of the pokemon's movelist. In the real games, one growl can lower a foes physical damage by 33%, but as the rules were in the game now Ive seen a reduction of 3 damage on an attack that was dealing damage in the 40s. A pokemon's movepool just seems so powerful and their stats seem so meaningless... Why bother wasting a turn increasing your attack by 5 when you can spend the same turn decreasing the health of your oponents by much more?

The only times I've seen stats make any kind of a difference was in the case of extreme minmaxxing (level 5 starter trapinch with 20 attack, and even then couldnt 1hko most foes) or when I just dropped +10 to all the stats on a boss monster to make a challenge- which is what, the equivilant of 50 levels worth of stat increases?

I was considering making combat stages more powerful for my campaign before I read the announcement that they were getting nerfed harder in 1.5... I don't know, maybe I'm a bit inexperienced in the system. Anyone have a comment regarding this?
This is true early game but proves false as levels progress. Combat stages and stats grow over time. It sounds like you've never seen much past the early phases of a campaign. Also while they were nerfed it was more a slight adjustment to make them easier to eyeball and adjust for. It's a marginal decrease in power for a bit quicker and convenient play
By level 40, of course, you can get a cincinno whos tail slaps deal a reliable 6d12+30 damage EOT, unmodified... It is true that I've only seen the early levels so far, but I just can't see it coming into play much more then it is. I guess I'll reevaluate as my campaign progresses.
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Lockdown
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At higher level play you've got a much larger number being taken off the attack score. On top of that you've got access to moves that deal multiple negative combat stages at once instead of just one a turn. So instead of bringing your opponents attack down by three or four points, you're bringing it down by ten or fifteen.
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DNA
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If only all Moves were made equal and provided the same benefits. Having 6 MA Moves is more useful than having 12 Dance Moves.

I should point out that's a matter of opinion, and debatable. Even if they're just buffs to CS, the fact that you get to choose which stats you buff is huge. And for someone like me who finds every conceivable way possible to exploit EOT +2 CS moves, something like this would be marvelous to me for all the wrong reasons.

As for it being redundant at later levels, that's also debatable, but what is unquestionable is the amount of choices you get. A Martial Artist Dancer could just pick up the pseudo-Tail Glow just to bolster his insane Alakazam, for example. With the capstone, it essentially becomes a pseudo-Buffet from PTA days, and Buffet is something I abused the hell out of. So seeing this understandably makes me wary.

To examine a different angle... With Multitasking you get to use 2 of those Dance moves in a single turn - sure you lose 2 AP each time you do it, but that's basically 4 CS in a single round. You could use this to make some otherwise-hard encounters ridiculously easy (+2 insert defense of your choice here, then +1 same defense/+1 your attacking stat). Giant bosses giving you problems? Not anymore.

Having a whopping 8 moves to learn from Dancer basically guarantees you'll almost always have an answer to something like this. ...come to think of it, that makes the claim that it's redundant highly questionable.
My claim that 4 moves is perfect for the class is debatable as well (it's based solely on my own observations and mental calculations), but I'll still say that 8 is far too many.
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Major
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To be fair multitasking would also allow someone to just nail you just as face. At higher levels (which is the only level that CS are going to be brutal) an EoT+STAB+Abilities+Atk can already get pretty high up there.

Personally, I think that's more an issue with multi-tasking than dancer.

As someone who has used combat stages and HAS a dancer in the party, I can agree that it is nice, but hardly overpowered. They already have enough versatility to buff most people. Quiver dance, sword dance, etc. These 8 moves hardly make a huge change. Yes, you can make your own, but as you said they are basically limited to the existing moves already. Plus the dancer is wasting their turn to get that buff. The buff is way more useful to pass on to others as a support. And a support needs a well to help each party member (tanks, special attacks, physical attackers) and this lets them do that.

Your listing 8 moves guarantees, but its already been proven that "four" is more than enough to cover most your bases anyways so your whole problem with it is a bit limited. If you feel CS are over-powered (and most disagree with you) then ANY amount of moves is too much apparently since its the same end result. Most likely a support based is going to grab "Swords Dance" "Special Sword Dance" and probably either a +2 def/+2spedef or a +1def/+1spdef. Maybe a +2 speed for running around places. Either way that's hardly hurt by nerfing how many.

A combat dip only needs two anyways. Sword Dance/Dragon Dance of their variety. The number is irrelevant in terms of power and combat stages won't break anything. Especially since edges and dips can easily net you common buff moves. (Work Up, Bulk Up, Agility, etc)
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Nomad
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Taking a look at hunter, I kind of liked the versatility of the old hunted effect (although it did feel separate from the rest of the class) and honestly see the change as a straight downgrade, (guaranteed +1 acc to you and your poke + stat bonuses for ambushes in exchange for a situational +2 acc to just your pokemon or a follow up tick if you both attack/hit the target) Maybe if you were also able to proc Don't Look Away/ Opportunist Training it would help the idea of you and your pokemon tag teaming a target, although ranged characters are really left out.

No complaints about the new surprise, just wish it listed what was required more clearly than Hunter Survival(?)

Take 'Em Down was kind of weak for how situational it was so I don't mind it being removed, but the new you count as adjacent for you poke's pack ability makes me wonder what use your own pack ability is while you're using ranged attacks.

Pack Master, the change to teamwork seems very weak for a late game ability. If you and your poke dog pile one enemy for your team it would certainly help, but outside of bosses who don't have adds the amount of time and attacks it takes for this to pay off seem kind of eh. As a boss slayer it seems good but outside of that I'm having difficulty seeing its practicability. Maybe allowing the damage bonus to apply to the next damage rol for pack hunt and giving poke with teamwork bonus accuracy if someone else procs teamwork would allow it more usability in encounters without making it crazy against bosses.

Edit: Idea, bring back Take 'Em Down (without making it a prereq for anything) as a mod for the trainers Teamwork/Pack Hunt abilities to make it so a ranged trainer can help their pokemon with theirs. Ex: Once per round they can have one of their pokemon proc their Teamwork/Pack Hunt abilities on a foe within some range of the trainer.
Edited by Nomad, Nov 14 2014, 01:06 PM.
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castfromhp
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castfromhp
Nov 11 2014, 08:53 AM
And I've updated Finisher in the Hunter draft to include the clause on counting as adjacent/counting as using Melee attacks.
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Nomad
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Ahh didn't notice that change, do you think it would be ok for the trainer to also be able to proc Don't Look Away/Opportunis's Training with their pack ability, or do you think that's to strong, also, outside boss battles how helpful has pack master been in testing?

Edit: Nvm looked back over it, and don't see anything about your pokemon proccing your pack/team ability if you're a ranged character, making the initial class feat almost useless for ranged trainers.
Edited by Nomad, Nov 14 2014, 01:49 PM.
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Major
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I do kinda agree with the capstone power. I mean, if it was just expert stealth or survival like the others sure. Its a low level capstone that is pretty nice, but not powerful. But with two expert skills that puts them at earliest 9 (6=expert stealth, 7=no pre-req, 8=expert survival, 9=pre-reqs met) and that is assuming they have adept in both (since all other feats only require one) and that they spend 6 and 8 edges on expert. Any delays from other classes (since most classes will want their expert ability and only require one skill) and its pushed back.

All it does is give +2 to ranged instead of just melee for Teamwork. Given, for pack hunt its fairly nice.

I'm also curious with Nomad on the trainer or pokemon triggering DLA/OT is overpowered? I mean, its a struggle and its an AP cost both ways.
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TM93
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Nov 13 2014, 08:38 PM
To be fair multitasking would also allow someone to just nail you just as face. At higher levels (which is the only level that CS are going to be brutal) an EoT+STAB+Abilities+Atk can already get pretty high up there.
Can I just say one thing, that the major difference between the Multi-tasking used to hit someone twice and gaining +3 CS, is that +3 CS has that Lasting Power angle, you're gonna burn AP with Multi-tasking fast, whereas you can use it for the CS's once or twice then be set for the fight and STILL have AP to spare for other things instead of having to burn it over and over to keep up that Damage rate. Plus you could still use Multi-tasking AFTER CS Buffing the next turn, which leads to the CS Buff being far better for the long run.

CS Buff: 0 Damage, 3.2X Damage (1.6 due to being at +3 in a Stat after Psuedo-DD+Pseudo-SD, x2, per Round), 6.4 Damage
Attacks: 2x Damage, 4X Damage, 6x Damage.

That's right, after 3 rounds, the CS Buff abuse of Multi-tasking is outdamaging the flat-offensive Multi-tasking.

Edit: if you get to +6 CS, which is somewhat reasonable on Turn 3, it turns into something even scarier for the long haul. Also note the variable X in these equations essentially stands for "one use of the Attack", so basically the amount of Damage relative to having fired off the Attack once. Also this is admittedly for the Stat damage, this doesn't really take Damage Bases into account. But eventually the difference becomes so great that the Damage Base wouldn't be considerable (Turn 4 on average is where the CS Buff prep starts to outshine flat offense without many exceptions.)

0 Damage, 3.2x Damage, 3.2x Damage (used to buff again with an EoT move, now the Rate is 4.4x Damage per turn with continued Multi-Tasking), 7.6x Damage, 12x Damage.
Edited by TM93, Nov 14 2014, 07:50 PM.
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Nomad
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castfromhp
Nov 14 2014, 01:07 PM
castfromhp
Nov 11 2014, 08:53 AM
And I've updated Finisher in the Hunter draft to include the clause on counting as adjacent/counting as using Melee attacks.
My concern was with how a ranged trainer would proc their Pack Hunt/Team Work ability they got with Hunter without having to be in melee range, which none of the current feats address.
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