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[PTU Blog] Polka and Poaching; a look at Dancer and Hunter revisions
Topic Started: Nov 10 2014, 06:21 PM (5,945 Views)
Doxy
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The PTU Guy
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DNA
Nov 12 2014, 03:47 PM
...nothing about Dancer's base feature being overbearing?
...nothing at all?

dammit senpai notice me already
We just think you're wrong is all, at least in terms of total power.

What may be a more valid point is that it's a pretty good 1-Feature Dip. May consider moving order around a bit.

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Thrice
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Mysticalman
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Nah, he has a point. Most Features in PTU teach two Moves - no more, no less. This one starts out as strong as those(and with very comparably good Moves for an entry Feature at that), but teaches a total of 8 in the end if you go all the way in Dancer, along with the powerful effects of those Features, and they're so much more malleable than most choices, so they don't lock you into any particular style of play. Even if your own build can't make use of that many stat-boosting Moves, someone around you can, and Passing Waltz lets you give the boosts to them.

Basically you get 8 Moves for 1 Feature, and that's pretty damn strong. If any homebrewer did that you know you'd call them out on that shit.
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DNA
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King of Thought
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Quote:
 
Basically you get 8 Moves for 1 Feature, and that's pretty damn strong. If any homebrewer did that you know you'd call them out on that shit.

^

I've given it some thought over the best way to balance it. I think the class, as a whole, shouldn't grant as many as 8 moves. No more than 4 I think is a good estimate, and I think 3 would probably be better (but it can work just fine with 4).

Here's my suggestion: Leave the base feature as is, but remove the part where you get 1 more move each time you take a Dancer feature. This is really the only thing wrong with it.
Then, have Beguiling Dance teach you 1 dance move of the debuff variety, bringing you up to 3. Finally, have the capstone (Passing Waltz) teach you 1 final dance move, of either the basic or the debuff variety, so you have a total of 4 (optional) - this is in addition to its current effect, mind, not a replacement.

This keeps the versatility of the class intact, while not having the class become totally overbearing in the process. All the other features can essentially stay the same, and you have a nice dip class with 4 buff/debuff moves of choice. Problem solved!

Fair?
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Lockdown
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I SEEE YOUUUU
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That's actually a downgrade from the current Dancer class DNA, which gives you six moves total, even if you can only teach your mon two of them.
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Domo
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Kawaii Detective
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Thrice
Nov 12 2014, 06:38 PM
Basically you get 8 Moves for 1 Feature, and that's pretty damn strong.
No, you get 8 Moves for 7 Features. While Dancer hands out more moves per full class, it does not, actually, hand out more moves per feat if you were just going to go around dipping for moves.

The only real issue with 8 is that most characters don't have a use for that many options. Most trainers are going to want +Offense/+Speed, +Def/+SpD, ++Offense or ++Speed for buffs. Few are going to really want more than ~3 buffs, so they're going to have a lot of very situational debuff dances.

Basically, Dancer isn't really that over strong, it just doesn't force a character to specialize the way other combat classes do. It could be parred down to five dances without a dramatic effect.
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Onidrill
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Some of Dancer's original versatility is lost in the transition, too. No more Rapid Spin on whatever you want, which was pretty damn useful in PTU. No more Quiver Dance either, which was the single best special sweeper buff trainers had (and I'm glad the class lost this, personally, as I suspect its change to Scene x2 was in part because Dancer had access to it, and it takes away from the handful of otherwise unremarkable butterflies that learn it.)

I agree that the 8 free moves is a bit much, but you have to invest in the entire class to get them, so unless you campaign lasts an especially long time you'll be doing more than dipping into the class to get them.

I like that Spinning Dance and Own tempo became their own separate feat - the former is a surprisingly powerful little ability.
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DNA
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Nov 12 2014, 10:55 PM
That's actually a downgrade from the current Dancer class DNA, which gives you six moves total, even if you can only teach your mon two of them.
And those moves are already pre-set for you.

So what's better - 6 moves pre-set (like most classes that teach moves, such as MA, another dip class), or 4 moves you get to choose/make yourself?

I'm saying that 8 moves, especially make-your-own ones, is too many - 4 is a good amount. (Or, as Domo suggests, 5. I still think 4, but 5 isn't far off.)
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Estradus
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I feel like the nerf to combat stages was a bit drastic- In my own experience so far, a pokemon's stats have felt far underpowered compared to the potential of the pokemon's movelist. In the real games, one growl can lower a foes physical damage by 33%, but as the rules were in the game now Ive seen a reduction of 3 damage on an attack that was dealing damage in the 40s. A pokemon's movepool just seems so powerful and their stats seem so meaningless... Why bother wasting a turn increasing your attack by 5 when you can spend the same turn decreasing the health of your oponents by much more?

The only times I've seen stats make any kind of a difference was in the case of extreme minmaxxing (level 5 starter trapinch with 20 attack, and even then couldnt 1hko most foes) or when I just dropped +10 to all the stats on a boss monster to make a challenge- which is what, the equivilant of 50 levels worth of stat increases?

I was considering making combat stages more powerful for my campaign before I read the announcement that they were getting nerfed harder in 1.5... I don't know, maybe I'm a bit inexperienced in the system. Anyone have a comment regarding this?
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Doxy
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The PTU Guy
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DNA
Nov 13 2014, 08:49 AM
Lockdown
Nov 12 2014, 10:55 PM
That's actually a downgrade from the current Dancer class DNA, which gives you six moves total, even if you can only teach your mon two of them.
And those moves are already pre-set for you.

So what's better - 6 moves pre-set (like most classes that teach moves, such as MA, another dip class), or 4 moves you get to choose/make yourself?

I'm saying that 8 moves, especially make-your-own ones, is too many - 4 is a good amount. (Or, as Domo suggests, 5. I still think 4, but 5 isn't far off.)
If only all Moves were made equal and provided the same benefits. Having 6 MA Moves is more useful than having 12 Dance Moves.

Also you kinda missed Domo's point, what he was saying wasn't that more than 5 Moves is OP, it's that it's REDUNDANT and not actually useful.
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zoofman
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Estradus
Nov 13 2014, 09:04 AM
I feel like the nerf to combat stages was a bit drastic- In my own experience so far, a pokemon's stats have felt far underpowered compared to the potential of the pokemon's movelist. In the real games, one growl can lower a foes physical damage by 33%, but as the rules were in the game now Ive seen a reduction of 3 damage on an attack that was dealing damage in the 40s. A pokemon's movepool just seems so powerful and their stats seem so meaningless... Why bother wasting a turn increasing your attack by 5 when you can spend the same turn decreasing the health of your oponents by much more?

The only times I've seen stats make any kind of a difference was in the case of extreme minmaxxing (level 5 starter trapinch with 20 attack, and even then couldnt 1hko most foes) or when I just dropped +10 to all the stats on a boss monster to make a challenge- which is what, the equivilant of 50 levels worth of stat increases?

I was considering making combat stages more powerful for my campaign before I read the announcement that they were getting nerfed harder in 1.5... I don't know, maybe I'm a bit inexperienced in the system. Anyone have a comment regarding this?
This is true early game but proves false as levels progress. Combat stages and stats grow over time. It sounds like you've never seen much past the early phases of a campaign. Also while they were nerfed it was more a slight adjustment to make them easier to eyeball and adjust for. It's a marginal decrease in power for a bit quicker and convenient play
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