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[PTU Blog] Polka and Poaching; a look at Dancer and Hunter revisions
Topic Started: Nov 10 2014, 06:21 PM (5,946 Views)
castfromhp
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Mawile Ace
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The problem with Quarry is it doesn't do a good job of introducing the Hunter's mechanics or a good job of leading into them. Nothing requires being a Quarry to use, nothing really enforces you using your Features just on Quarry, and making requirements like that would have made the Class nigh unusable. In practice, we've seen the Feature starts becoming just "I get a bonus to accuracy to whatever my current foe is" once you're in a fight, and that isn't very interesting either. If the most exciting part of the Feature was getting a couple small conditional Skill boosts, then I think ultimately it was a failure and could be replaced by grabbing Skill Stunts and equipment.

We may also be making more involved and well-integrated use of a marked enemy mechanic elsewhere in the system as we continue to revise and make updates. You'll have to wait and see~

Mechanically speaking, there's not much to escaping from someone in a fight in PTU aside from "let's compare overland speeds while sprinting", and that's a big problem for a Hunter because an enemy that outpaces them and their Pokémon can take a single opportunity to act and just run away. Don't Look Away and Opportunist's Training help prevent that, and they also make the Hunter very effective at locking down a single foe in battle, which is why I don't think the "slap each enemy once" idea is very compelling. These Features are certainly much more than "an extra Pack Hunt" and if anything are the core of the Class.

If you want to sneak and ambush, you can still do so and the loss of the Quarry mechanic is really not a big deal at all, but the Hunter's biggest concern is always going to be how to sustain that advantage once you've sprung the ambush. We also want Hunter to be usable in more builds and playstyles, and 1.04 Hunter suffered a bit if they were stuck in a party where not everyone could sneak along with them to ambush a foe or the GM didn't want to split the party each time to let them scout ahead and get the first strike.

On another note, Combat Maneuvers no longer require an accuracy penalty to be used. We'll see how that goes, but that did contribute to our decision to remove a couple things which boosted them.

And I've updated Finisher in the Hunter draft to include the clause on counting as adjacent/counting as using Melee attacks.
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Major
Pokémon Trainer
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I was going to argue that the Hunter's massive bonuses to trip (+1 accuracy, +2 combat skill check, +2 to accuracy on combat maneuvers) helped them lockdown. They could force an enemy to waste a shift and then pokemon could damage. Mixed with the Opportunist and Don't Look Away (which I didn't hate, I just felt they added less than quarry in regards to tripping, attacking, ambushing, etc and my wording might have been poor. But to be fair Pack Hunt did something similar. So it was an extra pack hunt+bonuses is more fair) it allowed them to keep someone locked down.

However, you added this:
Quote:
 
On another note, Combat Maneuvers no longer require an accuracy penalty to be used. We'll see how that goes, but that did contribute to our decision to remove a couple things which boosted them.

That helps a bit. I'll miss the +1 accuracy to my struggles, but since I give a +2 accuracy to allies (Teamwork) OR get a tick of 1/10th HP (Pack Hunt) it helps.

The skills are a shame to lose since it helped give Hunter a small edge in trips that only they got, but most the time I won by more than two.

On a side note, I do like the "do more once ambush", but I'm not seeing how the changes actually do that. Pack Hunt/Teamwork (while nice) don't really make a huge change in that regard. Don't Look Away and Opportunist Training exist currently. Surprise! is the only change for doing that once a fight starts (and obviously its nice), but since its one per foe that's why I said the "slap each enemy once".

Its much more efficient for the team for you to constantly cost people a turn (flinch) due to action economy. I'd think flinching a target so they can't run away is going to be more useful than forcing an enemy not to run away. Flinch will cost them their turn. Locking them down with trip or slowing them with the others is inferior. Would you rather spend 1AP to flinch each enemy once or 1AP to slow a target (or trip)? I'd think the DLA and OT feats are more useful AFTER you've action economy played around.

Though I'm curious how often you expect enemies to run away that you felt it was a vital issue with Hunter compared to any other melee class? An opponent that outpaces ANY melee can take a single opportunity to act and run away?

-----
On a side note though with your most recent post I'm not as sad about the change. I'll miss quarry, but if the combat maneuver debuff doesn't happen it isn't AS bad. Sure, I won't be better at tripping/combat maneuvering than other fighters (which I viewed as a perk of Hunter), but at least the numbers themselves won't change.



Edit: Final question
"Don’t Look Away is also triggered whenever a foe adjacent to your Pokémon with Pack Hunt or Teamwork attempts to attack another ally"
-Who is the "another"? You? Your Pokemon with Pack Hunt or Teamwork? Or both? Like, if they attack you does it trigger cause they didn't attack your mon? Or is it both?
Edited by Major, Nov 12 2014, 01:40 AM.
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Doxy
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The PTU Guy
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Major
Nov 12 2014, 01:30 AM
OR get a tick of 1/10th HP (Pack Hunt) it helps.
Seeing this used by someone else made me so happy, that I'll spoil MY personal favorite addition of 1.05:

Tick is going to be an official mechanical term to refer to 1/10th of Maximum Hit Points. So Poison does a "Tick" of Damage, and certain effects will heal you for a "Tick of Health".

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castfromhp
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Mawile Ace
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Hate to ruin it for you, Dox, but I introduced the term in my post.
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Elemental Knight
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Knight of the Spread Sheet
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castfromhp
Nov 12 2014, 08:09 AM
Hate to ruin it for you, Dox, but I introduced the term in my post.
Shhh. Let him take a tick of the credit, at least.
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Couch
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Major
Nov 12 2014, 01:30 AM
"Don’t Look Away is also triggered whenever a foe adjacent to your Pokémon with Pack Hunt or Teamwork attempts to attack another ally"
-Who is the "another"? You? Your Pokemon with Pack Hunt or Teamwork? Or both? Like, if they attack you does it trigger cause they didn't attack your mon? Or is it both?
I believe the intended meaning is that if you have two of your Pokemon next to an opponent, and your opponent attacks one of them, you can use Don't Look Away with the other.
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zoofman
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Elemental Knight
Nov 12 2014, 08:38 AM
castfromhp
Nov 12 2014, 08:09 AM
Hate to ruin it for you, Dox, but I introduced the term in my post.
Shhh. Let him take a tick of the credit, at least.
He can have a tick...IN HELL
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Major
Pokémon Trainer
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Couch
Nov 12 2014, 08:43 AM
Major
Nov 12 2014, 01:30 AM
"Don’t Look Away is also triggered whenever a foe adjacent to your Pokémon with Pack Hunt or Teamwork attempts to attack another ally"
-Who is the "another"? You? Your Pokemon with Pack Hunt or Teamwork? Or both? Like, if they attack you does it trigger cause they didn't attack your mon? Or is it both?
I believe the intended meaning is that if you have two of your Pokemon next to an opponent, and your opponent attacks one of them, you can use Don't Look Away with the other.
For some reason I was thinking Hunter made the attack with DLA and OT. Turns out its the Pokemon which clarifies how it works. If it attacks anyone other than that pokemon, that pokemon can attack.
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Doxy
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The PTU Guy
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castfromhp
Nov 12 2014, 08:09 AM
Hate to ruin it for you, Dox, but I introduced the term in my post.
*sobs*


now I've revealed I didn't read your post whoops
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DNA
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King of Thought
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...nothing about Dancer's base feature being overbearing?
...nothing at all?

dammit senpai notice me already
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