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Smogon hate. How come?
Topic Started: Aug 21 2014, 08:50 PM (5,807 Views)
JBPuffin
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Bard of Love...and Death, but mostly Love
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Yeah, I like Smogon. Before PTU showed its beautiful head, it was what kept me into POkemon. Now, it's one of the three forums I distract myself with in my free time :).

As for the mindset thing, well...look, everyone has their opinion. Someone wants to throw down with Alakazam with the Elemental Punches and Psychic in a sort of "competitive" environment, I'm not going to judge. If said person also uses a Gliscor with Toxic Orb, Poison Heal and assorted moves with maxed-out Speed and Attack...yeah, okay, strange, but it's opinion, eh? My first game of emerald, I beat the Elite Four with a level 64 Mudkip as my main character. It kicked ass so much there were no words. So yeah, opinion.
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TM93
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*shrugs* I know, I know, I made a mistake in my wording on the Shoutbox, and came off like an arse. I have my own criteria for my own reasons, but I don't want to shove it down anyone's throat. I'm sorry, I swear.
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OniLink147
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TM93
Aug 22 2014, 03:47 AM
OniLink147
Aug 22 2014, 12:48 AM

Quoting limited to 2 levels deep
Before I begin let me say I'm one of the few people here who seem to like Smogon overall. (The flat Swagger ban may have been a bit too much, Prankster Swagplay was the real issue if you ask me, and I never had issues with Aegislash myself, ever, so the ban was a bit silly to me, but I can see why people who were just entering the OU metagame could have issues with it)

Okay, this is entirely wrong and let me tell you why.

That's not Smogon's fault at all, that's the fact that you're going online with a team that is probably subpar for Nature, Moves, Ability, and IV's. I'm sorry that your Elite Four killing team can't stand up to people who have actually put in the time and effort into making their teams good. And heads up, at least 90% of the people on Ranked Battles on the PSS, or more, do not follow Smogon's rules at ALL (most of the people on the PSS Ranked are from Japan, and they take the game VERY seriously, and they don't have access to Smogon's battle Sims there unless they know how to read and write in English). Even if that is the case, that you're facing Smogonites nonstop, that's like getting upset at a Nascar race because you decided to use your Volkswagon Beetle.

Smogon is not an official game, no, and it can't reach into your game and tell you what's banned and what isn't. It can't tell you how to play your game. But it is a very good environment for people who haven't played Pokemon competitively, to go learn how it all works. They do their best to weed out broken strategies, to make their OU Metagame (the most popular ladder) more friendly for everyone, so that new players aren't put up against 100% broken strategies time and time again.

And for people who think Smogon is some big bad individual person or small council, that's not how it works either, just about every ban that isn't a quick ban (and only one or two bans a generation are, like Mega Gengar, which IS a broken pile of crap), is one that has a ladder and a COMMUNITY VOTE. To vote you have to play on a ladder using at least the Pokemon in suspect (hence the name Suspect Test), and have to achieve at least X Ranking on said ladder to be able to vote. Then votes come in, and a certain percentage has to be reached for the Pokemon to get banned (it's usually 60% or higher). Not EVERYONE who votes thinks a Pokemon is broken, heck, the Swagger ban and Aegislash ban was a very controversial vote, both of them didn't even break 70% of people voting for said ban.

Also, I love how people only get mad at bans to OU. When a Pokemon is banned from lower tiers like RU, UU, or NU, you never hear outrage over that (Mega Heracross and Mega Absol for one).

Next up, Smogon's rules are really only for battles that are held on it's simulators, and for people who agree on them beforehand. But overall I feel they're fair and balanced, and I can find defenses for just about every Clause they have (don't even get me started on Evasion and Sleep Clauses, really) so I prefer to use them myself. I'm sorry but the VGC rules are a big stinking pile IMO, Item Clause has no need to be in effect, and other than that they're lax in their rules, they let monsters like Mega Mom roam free, let that sink in. I don't think there's a player out there who doesn't think that Mega Kangaskhan is NOT a broken pile of crap, who is in their right mind. Meanwhile the VGC bans Pokemon that, while hard to obtain, are hardly special or outperform others, simply because they're "Legendaries". Examples include Celebi, Mew, Manaphy, Jirachi, Zygarde, Kyurem (they're strong enough give or take, but they're no stronger than many of the other Pokemon that dominate VGC tourneys). Heck, VGC bans freaking REGIGIGAS of all things (you are FORCED to run Skill Swap if you want it to work at all), that should give you an idea of how much of a care they gave about balanced to their rules. VGC is also a Doubles Format, which, while fun, isn't always what I'm after.

And I KNOW that Nintendo/Game Freak doesn't pay attention or care about the state of the metagame, they were surprised by Special Aegislash, despite giving it 150/150 base Offenses, and access to Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon. They were asked about the brokenness of Mega Mom, they said they aren't going to nerf it in any way, their response? "Use Rocky Helmet". Yeah. I could go into why that's stupid, but I get the feeling most people here can figure out why it is.

Third, I apologize to everyone who has met idiots in the Smogon community who think that they can go to any tournament and try and enforce their rules. But please, don't blame the majority of the community who just want to have fun and learn how to play Pokemon. If you find someone who's trying to shove Smogon's rules down your throat in a tournament that does not use said rules, I give you full permission to deck them in the schnoz.

Edit since no one has probably even read this yet: Another complaint I hear all the time is "Smogon doesn't let you use your favorites!". That is not true in the slightest, the very reason Tiers exist is so that people can indulge in their favorites in a friendly and balanced environment. If you have a love of Tyrantrum, it'll be hard to make that work in OU, but it'll do quite well in it's native Tier, RU. (That said there are still Pokemon that are absolute piles of crap, even in NU, the absolute lowest tier, but those are generally few and far between). The only issue is if you try and drag in a team that is 100% full of your favorites, which I've seen end with heavily mixed tier teams (if your favorites include both Garchomp, Mightyena, Stunfisk, Magcargo, Salamence, and Moltres, for example, you're gonna have a hard time in OU). A personal way of dealing with the issue is to find one to three Pokemon that you DO love within a tier (easy admittedly when I have so many favorites) and build a team AROUND them. Admittedly this strategy can also be put to good use in the PSS too! (Although if we try and translate, anything that isn't UU or higher probably isn't a good idea to drag onto the PSS Ranked Battles).
Edited, because I was being rude.
Edited by OniLink147, Aug 23 2014, 02:23 PM.
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castfromhp
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Watch your tone and the personal attacks. That's not okay. The sentiment you have could have been expressed without lines like "Congratulations on being a part of one of the worst competitive scenes in gaming, hope you have fun ruining other people's fun." At this point you're just as much trying to push a "right way" to play Pokémon on TM93, which is exactly the problem people have with "Smogon" in the first place.
Edited by castfromhp, Aug 23 2014, 05:10 AM.
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TM93
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I was under the impression that everything else in that post was quite civil, that was just the best analogy that I could come up with. I'm not saying don't try and come up with your own new sets and move combinations, in fact I heavily encourage that, and that's part of why I loved Pachirishu in the VGC, I even do so myself to a small extent over the generally given sets. (Volcarona, Dragonite and Megazard X for example, I go for Bulk over the suggested stat of Speed, they get Speed Buffs from Quiver/Dragon Dance respectively, they just need a chance to set it up.)

And yes, RNG is a very real thing in Pokemon, but now it's very possible for most players to figure out how to manipulate it through gameplay alone, and begin to build a proper team. Between new Breeding Mechanics (Destiny Knot+Everstone FTW), far easier to obtain IV's (Friend Safari and Unbreedable Pokemon FTW, Riolu and Azurill, you're both bros), far easier to obtain Hidden Abilities (Friend Safari and Hordes FTW), insanely easier EV Training (Hordes and Super Training, win), making a good Pokemon is easier than ever. Although I know it's still a lot to wrap your head around, I still enjoy giving my friends good Pokemon if they need it (I think I've given out at least 3 optimal Protean Greninjas at this point, and about 10 of the same for Talonflames, and countless Charizards of both variety, and you know what, I love it, I love helping friends out like that)

But getting a bit back on track, I was ranting there, while the analogy may have come off as rude, I'm sorry. But going in to the PSS with a team which is pretty much just "the team I beat the game with and I didn't breed or EV train them properly for one set or another" is simply not a good idea, and complaining when you lose isn't very cool at that point, when the vast majority of other players, Smogonites or not, have bred and trained their teams. Hence where my analogy came in, rude or not.

Does Smogon eliminate types of gameplay? Yes, and no. They got rid of Swagplay teams, Sleep Teams, Evasion Teams, and I forgot what the consensus on Full Pass Teams were. But these types of playstyles were incredibly taxing on the game, and when they were removed, many other playstyles became far more viable, and new strategies pop up all the time. There are still many very viable types of gameplay outside of these rather broken, and frustrating to play against ones. Balanced, Offensive, Hyper Offensive, Stall, Support/Cripple, Phasing, Hazard-setting are just a few examples I can think of.

I was not saying you have to like how I play the game, or that you have to play it like I do. But please don't go into a competitive scene with a team that is not prepared in the slightest, then complain when you lose and blame it on a community whose presence is minimal to only moderate at absolute best in the place you're playing. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Again, I hope I'm being civil here and not trying to push a playstyle down anyone's throat. If I am, sorry, and I'll edit the post.
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Anonyman
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OniLink147
Aug 23 2014, 12:25 AM
TM93
Aug 22 2014, 03:47 AM

Quoting limited to 2 levels deep
That's the attitude I'm referring to. A Nascar race? Really? Its a video game about catching a fighting monsters, not dissecting it and eliminating most playstyles. I'm sorry I don't enjoy having to use Sword Dance Lucario with perfect IVs, a Life Orb, Sword Dance, Close Combat, Earthquake, and Extreme Speed. I'm sorry if I don't want to force my Pokemon to have its EV spread be an exact clone of literally every other Lucario in existence with 252 Attack, 4 Def, 252 Speed. Its not smogon specifically, but the types of players it attracts. Players like you who's entire purpose seems to be to take a game that's primary gameplay mechanic is luck and suck any and all fun out of it. Pokémon runs almost entirely off of RNGs. Whether it be what Pokemon you encounter, whether you catch it or not, whether you hit or not, whether you crit or not, whether you get flinched or frozen, or any number of completely random factors. Congratulations on being a part of one of the worst competitive scenes in gaming, hope you have fun ruining other people's fun. Also just saying, the elitist attitude that most smogonites have isn't going to make people any more likely to join their ranks.
I don't think I understand the Lucario example. Are you upset that a fully IV/EV trained pokemon with a good moveset wins more than one without? Or are you just upset that because your pokemon aren't set up well they lose to people who prepare?

It sounds like you would prefer to play dice to pokemon, since you can't stand the idea of someone who plans and puts in the effort to make a team beating you. Playing casually with the pokemon you like without any thought about strategy is good and all, but don't blame the people who beat you for being winning; accept that you knowingly went into a fight at a disadvantage of your own volition.

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OniLink147
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I apologize for my tone and personal attacks, it was late and I was tired/irritable. As for my point, my issue isn't the preparation factor. It's the homogeny that the competitive community encourages. My point with the Lucario is there is no such thing as having a unique Pokémon in the competitive scene. All Pokémon must follow a specific build with the same moves, EVs, IVs, Natures, etc. Occasionally you can deviate from this, but if you do so too much, you are looked down upon. Which factors into what I was saying about elitism within the competitive community.

As for the RNG, honestly I don't think Pokémon should be competitive in the first place, even with probabilities in your favor luck can play a huge role in a match, such as recently at the Pokémon World Championships. A player was screwed over because of a completely random flinch. And no I would not rather play dice, if I want to play a game competitively I would play a game where RNG does not have the ability to decide a match. That's what caused such an uproar in the Halo community in Halo Reach. Bungie introduced an RNG into play with bloom on precision weapons, turning a previously competitively viable game into a RNG simulator. The same thing happened with Brawl and tripping. Randomness lowers a game's competitive viability overall and Pokémon's primary gameplay mechanics all run on an RNG.

The other issue is simply the fact that many players have no interest in playing online anymore because of how alienating it is to play. It isn't about playing to have fun anymore, its about breeding an absolutely perfect beast that will murderstomp anything that is not equally as beastly. The part that bothers me though is that this concept has completely consumed Pokémon's multiplayer. In say Halo or Super Smash Bros, a casual player is capable of having fun and enjoying themselves while still co-existing alongside the highly competitive players. In Pokémon, unless the person enjoys losing, a casual player isn't going to have fun.
Edited by OniLink147, Aug 23 2014, 02:24 PM.
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TM93
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Any game that has PvP-based Multiplayer is going to have a competitive scene, and probably a metagame, there's nothing that you can really do to stop that, so there's no need to say that there should never be a competitive scene for Pokemon.

And honestly, the "looked down upon" thing for deviant sets, is usually if it's flat-out bad, and there's nothing wrong with experimenting and making a bad set, it happens to the best of us (I admittedly laughed at Bulky Support Talonflame myself, but now that I've seen it in action, I'm highly impressed by the ingenuity of it). And it even then it may take some convincing if it is a good set. My 252 HP Dragonite was laughed at for a bit, until it started tanking Mamoswine Icicle Crashes and Weavile Ice Punches.

Hax (Random Chance) happens, and it's something you have to live with in Pokemon's Competitive Scene. Plain and simple. But that's also part of the fun if you ask me, even if it gets frustrating when you lose. The fact that there's a balance of predictable flow of a match on top of RNG is what makes Pokemon fun, yes, you may have a technical advantage, but one wrong move can still change the course of the match. However, in recent generations, even that has become a bit more predictable (namely Gen 6's Type Chart change, you can now swap Electric Types into moves with a chance of Paralysis with no fear, just like Fire Types have been able to do the same with potential burns for years. I can't go into how much that's helped against things like Paraflinchers.). This balance of preparation and luck is a major part of what makes the competitive scene enjoyable for me. A perfectly prepared team still has a small chance of losing due to this luck, even if the better prepared team/one with an overwhelming advantage has a far greater chance.

If you want to play casually exclusively, by all means do so, I won't stop you and I won't force you to play competitively. But that doesn't mean that the people who take their time breeding are sucking the fun out of the game. It doesn't mean that the competitive scene is bad. It doesn't mean that everyone who plays the game competitively is bad, or even that the majority of the community is. It doesn't mean that Pokemon should not have a competitive scene.

It does mean that if you hop onto the PSS, be prepared to face a properly prepared team who WILL probably beat you if you haven't prepared yourself, whether it's a Ranked or even a Passerby match.
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LampostSamurai
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My main issue with Smogon is that their answer to all issues that threaten the meta is to ban it: Prankswag being used? Better ban Swagger. Megakang can hit twice at 50% power when there are potential priority counters in the meta? Better ban it.

It's just bad. It promotes bad gameplay, and while I have been known to utilize some smogon builds, I actually dislike the community on the whole.
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DNA
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I'll just leave this here...

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