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| Smogon hate. How come? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 21 2014, 08:50 PM (5,803 Views) | |
| Pop Smash | Aug 21 2014, 08:50 PM Post #1 |
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Dancing Dragonite
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Title says it all. I've heard that thee are people who hate Smogon. But I cannot figure out WHY people hate Smogon? Help? |
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| Lockdown | Aug 21 2014, 09:11 PM Post #2 |
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I SEEE YOUUUU
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Because they represent all the neckbeards that took a game that's fun for people of all ages, and turned it into a mess of what you can and can't use, what's "proper". They're the guys who go into a local gamestore that's having a pokemon event, and completely ruin the experience for the younger players with insults and derision. That is why I hate smogon. |
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| Marhatus | Aug 21 2014, 09:11 PM Post #3 |
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Avid Lurker
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Because they banned Swagger. :| (No really they're ok I guess, just their priorities don't always match up with other people's, which is going to happen no matter what you do). EDIT: And while I'm here complaining about them, I think some people tend to be too reliant on what Smogon says and end up being less creative in their teambuilding because of it. :\ Edited by Marhatus, Aug 21 2014, 09:15 PM.
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| DNA | Aug 21 2014, 09:12 PM Post #4 |
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King of Thought
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VGC exists. Well, to be fair, VGC has existed for a long time, but 2011 (with BW1) brought it to a more accessible place, and it's been getting bigger ever since (the very first XY VGC at Long Beach had about 650 competitors, never mind friends and family). With VGC being the official tournament medium, even being advocated in-game (in a sense), its prevalence has made Smogon virtually irrelevant (Smogon only deals with Singles, while VGC is a Doubles format). While I'm not sure that's a reason to hate, it does show that Smogon isn't an authority anymore and holds very little sway there. They were also known to make a few "questionable" decisions during BW2 days, but that's neither here nor there - BW2 has always been a messy format. |
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| OniLink147 | Aug 21 2014, 11:36 PM Post #5 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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Pretty much this. Plus they made it almost impossible to go online with the team that you beat the game with, instead you have to spend countless hours breeding an absolutely perfect team or else you are going to get stomped. |
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| Marhatus | Aug 22 2014, 12:39 AM Post #6 |
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Avid Lurker
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Actually, I threw together a team in a few days and went online with it and have had mild success and a lot of fun battles (though I've only done so outside of Battle Spot). While I've had trouble with teams that're heavily influenced by Smogon, it's probably because I have three steel types and no way to deal with Heatran (and no defogger, stupid hazards) and because the other players were genuinely very skilled. |
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| OniLink147 | Aug 22 2014, 12:48 AM Post #7 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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Lucky you. I literally can never find a match against anyone but smogonites. |
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| Pop Smash | Aug 22 2014, 01:24 AM Post #8 |
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Dancing Dragonite
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But isn't that WHY pokemon is great for everyone? Because you can play through the game with literally any pokemon and beat it, but if you are older and want there to be more planning and strategy you can find that as well. |
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| TM93 | Aug 22 2014, 03:47 AM Post #9 |
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Pokémon Trainer
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Before I begin let me say I'm one of the few people here who seem to like Smogon overall. (The flat Swagger ban may have been a bit too much, Prankster Swagplay was the real issue if you ask me, and I never had issues with Aegislash myself, ever, so the ban was a bit silly to me, but I can see why people who were just entering the OU metagame could have issues with it) Okay, this is entirely wrong and let me tell you why. That's not Smogon's fault at all, that's the fact that you're going online with a team that is probably subpar for Nature, Moves, Ability, and IV's. I'm sorry that your Elite Four killing team can't stand up to people who have actually put in the time and effort into making their teams good. And heads up, at least 90% of the people on Ranked Battles on the PSS, or more, do not follow Smogon's rules at ALL (most of the people on the PSS Ranked are from Japan, and they take the game VERY seriously, and they don't have access to Smogon's battle Sims there unless they know how to read and write in English). Even if that is the case, that you're facing Smogonites nonstop, that's like getting upset at a Nascar race because you decided to use your Volkswagon Beetle. Smogon is not an official game, no, and it can't reach into your game and tell you what's banned and what isn't. It can't tell you how to play your game. But it is a very good environment for people who haven't played Pokemon competitively, to go learn how it all works. They do their best to weed out broken strategies, to make their OU Metagame (the most popular ladder) more friendly for everyone, so that new players aren't put up against 100% broken strategies time and time again. And for people who think Smogon is some big bad individual person or small council, that's not how it works either, just about every ban that isn't a quick ban (and only one or two bans a generation are, like Mega Gengar, which IS a broken pile of crap), is one that has a ladder and a COMMUNITY VOTE. To vote you have to play on a ladder using at least the Pokemon in suspect (hence the name Suspect Test), and have to achieve at least X Ranking on said ladder to be able to vote. Then votes come in, and a certain percentage has to be reached for the Pokemon to get banned (it's usually 60% or higher). Not EVERYONE who votes thinks a Pokemon is broken, heck, the Swagger ban and Aegislash ban was a very controversial vote, both of them didn't even break 70% of people voting for said ban. Also, I love how people only get mad at bans to OU. When a Pokemon is banned from lower tiers like RU, UU, or NU, you never hear outrage over that (Mega Heracross and Mega Absol for one). Next up, Smogon's rules are really only for battles that are held on it's simulators, and for people who agree on them beforehand. But overall I feel they're fair and balanced, and I can find defenses for just about every Clause they have (don't even get me started on Evasion and Sleep Clauses, really) so I prefer to use them myself. I'm sorry but the VGC rules are a big stinking pile IMO, Item Clause has no need to be in effect, and other than that they're lax in their rules, they let monsters like Mega Mom roam free, let that sink in. I don't think there's a player out there who doesn't think that Mega Kangaskhan is NOT a broken pile of crap, who is in their right mind. Meanwhile the VGC bans Pokemon that, while hard to obtain, are hardly special or outperform others, simply because they're "Legendaries". Examples include Celebi, Mew, Manaphy, Jirachi, Zygarde, Kyurem (they're strong enough give or take, but they're no stronger than many of the other Pokemon that dominate VGC tourneys). Heck, VGC bans freaking REGIGIGAS of all things (you are FORCED to run Skill Swap if you want it to work at all), that should give you an idea of how much of a care they gave about balanced to their rules. VGC is also a Doubles Format, which, while fun, isn't always what I'm after. And I KNOW that Nintendo/Game Freak doesn't pay attention or care about the state of the metagame, they were surprised by Special Aegislash, despite giving it 150/150 base Offenses, and access to Shadow Ball and Flash Cannon. They were asked about the brokenness of Mega Mom, they said they aren't going to nerf it in any way, their response? "Use Rocky Helmet". Yeah. I could go into why that's stupid, but I get the feeling most people here can figure out why it is. Third, I apologize to everyone who has met idiots in the Smogon community who think that they can go to any tournament and try and enforce their rules. But please, don't blame the majority of the community who just want to have fun and learn how to play Pokemon. If you find someone who's trying to shove Smogon's rules down your throat in a tournament that does not use said rules, I give you full permission to deck them in the schnoz. Edit since no one has probably even read this yet: Another complaint I hear all the time is "Smogon doesn't let you use your favorites!". That is not true in the slightest, the very reason Tiers exist is so that people can indulge in their favorites in a friendly and balanced environment. If you have a love of Tyrantrum, it'll be hard to make that work in OU, but it'll do quite well in it's native Tier, RU. (That said there are still Pokemon that are absolute piles of crap, even in NU, the absolute lowest tier, but those are generally few and far between). The only issue is if you try and drag in a team that is 100% full of your favorites, which I've seen end with heavily mixed tier teams (if your favorites include both Garchomp, Mightyena, Stunfisk, Magcargo, Salamence, and Moltres, for example, you're gonna have a hard time in OU). A personal way of dealing with the issue is to find one to three Pokemon that you DO love within a tier (easy admittedly when I have so many favorites) and build a team AROUND them. Admittedly this strategy can also be put to good use in the PSS too! (Although if we try and translate, anything that isn't UU or higher probably isn't a good idea to drag onto the PSS Ranked Battles). Edited by TM93, Aug 22 2014, 04:22 AM.
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| Elemental Knight | Aug 22 2014, 05:42 AM Post #10 |
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Knight of the Spread Sheet
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So, before I throw in a word: I don't mind what Smogon does for the video game community. That's fine - get a bunch of people together to play a game, make some rules to try and make things more fair, and build a community. That's fine and dandy. And since I personally don't do any Pokemon battling with my 3DS or anything, I don't really care about what those rules actually are. (I do read The Smog every so often; the for-fun articles are, in fact, quite fun for me.) However! It's not a very good resource for the tabletop game. Because Tabletop is such a different beast, with a completely different feel - it's not just 2v2, it's usually more like 4vMany - a lot of the Smogon-borne strategies you find out there won't translate well to the tabletop. I know, because I've tried it - throwing together a Smogon recommended movelist on a few Pokemon to toss it at my players. It was better than no strategy, but it never held much ground against a group of determined PCs. And, of course, they can't help with the crazier strategies that can only work on a tabletop, the typical "I swing from the chandelier" shenanigans, synergies for a whole team to throw a beatdown all at once, ways to have classes synergize with their Pokemon... ...If anything, that sounds like an invitation to make a kind of Minmaxer's Corner for Tabletop. I am not the man for that job, unfortunately, though I've stumbled upon a few fun synergies with the classes I play. The old minmaxing challenge thread was a good start in this direction, but it focused solely on the lone Pokemon and rarely went into broader strategies. So... I don't hate Smogon; I appreciate what they're trying to do and I hope they have fun doing it. But for what I do the most with Pokemon - that is, Tabletop - they just aren't a very good resource. |
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